ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

NORTHERN IRELAND

The Secretary of State was asked-

Presbyterian Mutual Society

William McCrea: What progress has been made in providing assistance to savers affected by the current situation of the Presbyterian Mutual Society.

Owen Paterson: Both the Prime Minister and I have publicly stated our firm commitment to working with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure a just and fair resolution to the PMS situation, and all options are being considered. The reconvened ministerial working group will meet soon to review progress, and I will be its chairman.

William McCrea: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of those with savings of less than £20,000 in the PMS are in the older age bracket? As a result, they have been denied access to their savings for more than 20 months and have faced hardship and great distress? Does he appreciate that the urgent resolution of this situation is necessary? What timetable is he working on to resolve it?

Owen Paterson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. I totally appreciate the severity of the pressures, particularly on older people, who are having trouble paying nursing home fees and so on. I would love to set a timetable, but I cannot do so. All I can say is that this Government take this issue seriously, we will get a grip on it, we have reconvened the working group and I will chair it. I very much hope that we will arrive at a solution.

Margaret Ritchie: I thank the Secretary of State for his answer. Given the extent of central Government support for failed financial institutions and the severe budgetary pressures faced by the Northern Ireland Executive, does he accept that it is imperative that the Treasury endeavours to alleviate the financial burdens faced by savers in the PMS? Will he take those views on board when he begins to chair this group shortly? If the Northern Ireland Executive find resources for this organisation, will the Treasury match those several-fold?

Owen Paterson: I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for her question. I would not want to prejudge the result of our deliberations, so I merely say that my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be on the working group, and its other four members are all part of the Executive and will put the point of view of the Executive clearly in our deliberations.

Dissident Paramilitary Activity

Iain Wright: What recent assessment he has made of the extent of activities of dissident republicans in Northern Ireland.

David Simpson: What his most recent assessment is of the level of security threat from dissident republican organisations in Northern Ireland.

David Hanson: What recent assessment he has made of levels of dissident paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland.

Hugo Swire: The threat level in Northern Ireland remains at severe, but the security forces continue to bear down on this small number of criminals. So far this year there have been 121 arrests and 30 charges brought, which compares with 106 arrests and 17 charges brought in the whole of 2009.

Iain Wright: I thank the Minister for his response. In the light of the Independent Monitoring Commission's report, the increase in the activity of a small band of dissident republicans and, in particular, the worrying use of car bombs, will he consider continuing the previous Government's practice of providing additional funds from the reserves to tackle terrorism?

Hugo Swire: We did, of course, endorse that approach and, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, we wrote the most open-dated cheque in supporting the previous Government's moves in that direction before the general election. In my opening remarks, I referred to the level of activity among those who reject the peace process and who have, in effect, turned their backs on it. I do not wish to distinguish them by calling them "dissident republicans" because I believe that that gives them a status that they do not deserve. I believe that the security services, particularly the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the Department of Justice in Belfast, which is headed by David Ford, and crucially, the Garda in the Republic of Ireland, are working extremely carefully and closely together to try to prevent these atrocities from happening on a more regular basis.

David Simpson: The Minister will be aware that in recent days a 300 lb bomb and a 160 lb bomb have been planted in Northern Ireland by these so-called "dissidents". Further to the previous question, may I ask whether he will give assurances to this House today and to the people who live in the area where these bombs were put that we will get whatever resources are needed, be they financial or manpower?

Hugo Swire: The hon. Gentleman's constituency had the pipe bomb in the grounds of the Brownlow PSNI station on 18 June and the tragic and unacceptable murder of Constable Stephen Carroll by the Continuity IRA. The answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is that we support any bid by the PSNI for additional resources, and we will make representations to the Treasury as and when necessary, because the security of innocent individuals in Northern Ireland should be paramount in everything we seek to do.

David Hanson: Does the Minister agree that this is not just about the threat of bombs and dissident activity but about the fact that many dissidents in Northern Ireland-as I know from my experience as a Minister there for some time-are involved in criminal activity? Even today, we have seen reports of criminal gangs and prostitution run by dissident paramilitaries. Will he ensure that resources are available not only to tackle the emergency situation but to deal with the long-term security and crime issues that impact on the community across the Province?

Hugo Swire: Indeed. Things have changed since the right hon. Gentleman was in Northern Ireland and, of course, crime issues that are without any kind of terrorist connotation are a matter for the Department of Justice, David Ford and the PSNI. Of course, we will provide all the resources that are needed. I cannot stress enough the close co-operation we have with the Garda on cross-border issues. I am delighted to make an announcement today on one of the things for which we have been lobbied by the PSNI-an automatic number plate reading device that will cost £12.9 million. The Secretary of State has been lobbying the Treasury since he took office and I am delighted to be able to announce to the House this morning that we have that funding for the PSNI. That will be a useful device in its continuing battle against those who would commit crime.

Nigel Dodds: May I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and the Secretary of State on their appointments and wish them well in Northern Ireland? Further to previous questions, may I ask what discussions have taken place between the Government, the Chief Constable and the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland on access to the security fund?

Hugo Swire: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his elevation to the Privy Council. We have regular meetings, both on a statutory basis and on an informal basis, with David Ford, the Chief Constable and others in Northern Ireland. We listen to the requests that they make for access to the funds, as the right hon. Gentleman suggests, but I think that they will be heartened by the news that when they asked us for something during the first few weeks of our being in power, we delivered.

Nigel Dodds: I am grateful to the Minister for his response and congratulate him on his announcement today. Given that he is now off to a good start, I hope that he can continue with that. On the wider issue of resources, will he give us an assurance? Given the amount of powers that are devolved to Northern Ireland, one of his main tasks will be, along with his colleague the Secretary of State, to fight the Treasury for funds for Northern Ireland. He will be judged on that, so will he give a commitment that he is fighting on that front, too?

Hugo Swire: The right hon. Gentleman will know that we do not have to fight with the Treasury, because in the Treasury are our dear and trusted colleagues. Whenever we have asked them for anything, they have delivered- although I would concede that that has happened only once to date. Without being particularly partisan against Labour Members, I refer the right hon. Gentleman back to the outgoing Chief Secretary's remark that "There is no money." This is a very tight fiscal round and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Secretary of State and I will make representations to the Treasury when asked to do so on behalf of the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland.

Laurence Robertson: I congratulate my hon. Friend and the Secretary of State on their appointments. Does the Minister agree that one way in which paramilitary activity can start to be countered is if there is co-operation between people in all sections of the communities in each of these areas? Is the Minister satisfied that sufficient progress is being made in that respect?

Hugo Swire: I congratulate my hon. Friend on being appointed Chair of the Select Committee. I hope that that is one issue that the newly formed Select Committee will consider. Of course, he is right, particularly in the light of the Saville report on Bloody Sunday when, for many people, we finally got the truth of what happened on that dreadful day. It is incumbent on everyone in Northern Ireland to come forward and tell the truth. It is only through the truth being told that we can get reconciliation and allow Northern Ireland to move on in the way that everybody in this House would wish it to.

Mr Speaker: We need to make somewhat faster progress.

Paul Goggins: I welcome the Minister to his post and wish him genuinely warm good wishes in his responsibilities. I also welcome the very good news that he and the Secretary of State have secured this additional £12 million from the reserve. That is vital funding and I congratulate them on obtaining it. I am sure that he will agree that the Independent Monitoring Commission has played a vital role in the political process and in the peace process in Northern Ireland. Now that devolution is complete, what role does he envisage for the IMC in the future?

Hugo Swire: I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman and I have heard nothing but good about his time in Northern Ireland as a Minister. He is a hard act to follow. To keep my answer short, in line with what you have just suggested, Mr Speaker, the IMC has, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, performed a sterling service. We and the Irish Government keep the continuing need for it under review.

Public Inquiries

Paul Farrelly: What his policy is on holding further public inquiries into events involving deaths which took place during the troubles in Northern Ireland.

Owen Paterson: I reaffirm the statement made to this House by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 15 June, where he reassured the House that there would be
	"no more open-ended and costly inquiries into the past."-[ Official Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 741.]

Paul Farrelly: May I, too, congratulate my next-door neighbour from just over the border in Shropshire on his appointment as the Secretary of State? Does he agree that the Saville inquiry, no matter how long it took, marked a watershed in the troubled history of Northern Ireland? While respecting the families' legitimate rights still to grieve, it is important to look to the future. All the Governments of the past 30 years should be congratulated on their efforts toward reconciliation in Northern Ireland, but will he outline what specific initiatives the new Government will take to secure peace in Northern Ireland?

Owen Paterson: I am most grateful for my neighbour's kind comments. He is absolutely right that Northern Ireland needs to look ahead, but the people of Northern Ireland need to work together, and solutions for dealing with the past and looking ahead must be agreed among those who lead the country at local level. We cannot have solutions being imposed from above.

Shaun Woodward: I, too, congratulate the Secretary of State and the Minister of State on assuming their posts. In the Prime Minister's statement on Saville, he said that he wanted to
	"reassure the House that there will be no more open-ended and costly inquiries into the past."-[ Official Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 741.]
	We know that that was also the Secretary of State' position in opposition, so we were a little intrigued to hear from the Prime Minister in the same statement that we
	"should look at each case on its merits." -[ Official Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 744]
	So-a straight answer here will do-does the right hon. Gentleman accept that he may have been a little rash, in opposition, definitively to rule out future inquiries, whatever the case? A yes or no will do.

Owen Paterson: I am most grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for his comments. I do not want to turn this into a love-in, but I compliment him on delivering the final stage of devolution. That was his great achievement as the Secretary of State. It is important, in considering that past, that we do not shut out any possible solutions. The Prime Minister said last week in his statement that the Historical Enquiries Team is doing good work, has support across the community and achieves very high satisfaction levels: 86% of those who have had HET reports were satisfied with its performance. For the time being, that is the route ahead, but we cannot impose a solution from above.

Shaun Woodward: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman mentions the HET, which he will know was established as part of a process and is not, of course, the process. It is looking at 3,268 unsolved killings, but after five years it is still working on the 1970s. It is not an inquiry, it is not an inquest and it is not a police investigation. We know that all families want the truth, so will he be straight with those families, including the family of the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea), and admit that now Saville has been published, there is a responsibility on the Government to come forward with a fully funded, comprehensive process to establish and discover the truth and bring reconciliation for all families?

Owen Paterson: We have a process through the HET that is achieving very high levels of satisfaction-of the families who have had a report, 95% credited it for professionalism and 86% for performance. That is working. Before we go further, we need to work with local politicians. As I keep repeating, there is no role for us, as the national Government, to impose. I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the comments of David Ford, this week. He said:
	"We cannot have a Saville-type inquiry for all the tragedies of the past, but the fundamental matter of dealing with the past is something which has to be dealt with collectively by the Executive."

Consultative Group on the Past

Mark Durkan: What plans he has to take into account the recommendations of the report of the Consultative Group on the Past in formulating policy on reconciliation measures in Northern Ireland.

Owen Paterson: In determining what role I can play, I will of course consider the recommendations made by the Consultative Group on the Past. I will shortly publish a summary of responses to the previous Government's consultation on the group's proposals.

Mark Durkan: I congratulate the Secretary of State on his appointment and I take this opportunity to thank him and his predecessor for the quality of contact and consideration that they extended to the families regarding the publication of the Saville report. On the wider issues of the past, there are thousands of victims, all of whom have different needs in terms of truth, recognition and remembrance. Does the Secretary of State agree that the community also has a collective responsibility to discharge its regard for the past so that future generations will know that it was a dirty war and that we will never settle for a dirty peace?

Owen Paterson: I am grateful for that question and pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, who has taken me to his constituency. I met the families in the Bogside two or three years ago, and on that trip I also met Dr Hazlett Lynch a few hours later. That drummed into me the fact that there is no consensus on the past. We have to work at local level, and I appeal to the hon. Gentleman to work with his colleagues in the Executive, in collaboration with us, to find a way forward. However, there is no black-and-white solution that will work if we impose it from above.

Naomi Long: May I add my congratulations to the Secretary of State on his appointment? Is he aware of the report produced this morning by the Commission for Victims and Survivors giving the Government advice on dealing with the past? How will he take forward the report's recommendations so that we have a more comprehensive process for dealing with all aspects of the past and the needs of victims?

Owen Paterson: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that question. The document will form part of our listening exercise. We will publish the summary of the conclusions of those who responded to the previous Government on the Eames-Bradley report. As I have said, we will be going round talking and listening to various groups, but I repeat-for the nth time in this question session-that we cannot impose. It is up to people in Northern Ireland to work together to decide a strategy going forward.

Pat Finucane

Meg Hillier: When he plans to establish a public inquiry into the death of Pat Finucane.

Owen Paterson: I am aware of the previous Government's commitments and that there has been a long-running exchange between the previous Government and the Finucane family on the question of an inquiry.
	Before I explain how I propose to approach this question, I want to hear the views of the Finucane family for myself. I have written to the family to invite them to meet me.

Meg Hillier: I welcome the Secretary of State to his position and thank him for that answer. Earlier, he indicated once again that there would be no more open-ended inquiries but, when the Prime Minister responded to the Saville report, he said both that and
	"but of course we should look at each case on its merits."-[ Official Report, 15 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 744.]
	Although I thank the Secretary of State for his answer, I am not sure-and I wonder whether the family of Pat Finucane are sure-which of those positions holds true for that case.

Owen Paterson: As the hon. Lady knows, the issue was the subject of considerable discussion between the Finucane family and the previous Secretary of State. I think that today it is appropriate for me to talk to the family first rather than to give a black-and-white answer on how we are going to take this forward.

Jeffrey M Donaldson: As the Secretary of State will know, there is no bar to an inquiry going forward on this issue, except for the fact that the family are looking for some kind of special provision. If the right hon. Gentleman grants that, the danger is that he will create a hierarchy of victims, and that thousands of people who have not had justice will look on and wonder why they are not getting the same justice.

Owen Paterson: I am grateful for that, and the right hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. I repeat my earlier reply-that, at this stage, the first thing that I should do is to go and talk to the family-but I also repeat that it is our policy not to have any more costly and open-ended inquiries.

Dual Mandates

Robert Halfon: What discussions he has had with Ministerial colleagues on the system of dual mandates in the House of Commons and the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Owen Paterson: I should be demanding time and a half.
	I have had several discussions with ministerial colleagues on the system of dual mandates. I believe that dual mandates should be brought to an end but that the best way to do so is by consensus among the Northern Ireland parties.

Robert Halfon: Does my right hon. Friend agree that so-called "double jobbing" has scarred Northern Irish politics for far too long? If local parties will not agree to end that voluntarily, will he consider introducing legislation to restrict the practice and ensure that double-jobbers take only one salary?

Owen Paterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question, and he is quite right. The time to end double-jobbing is upon us: quite simply, a Member cannot sit in two legislatures at once. We know from local polls that double-jobbing is very unpopular-in one poll, 71% of respondents were against it. We would like to negotiate with local parties and, if absolutely necessary, we would legislate. However, I draw attention to the example set by my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). On the day that he was elected to this House, he announced his intention to stand down from the Welsh Assembly, and he has forgone his salary for the rest of this year.

Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many private conversations taking place in the Chamber. It is very unfair on the hon. Member asking the question, and indeed on the Minister answering. The House must come to order.

Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland

Maria Eagle: When the Government plan to publish their response to the consultation on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland.

Hugo Swire: I intend to publish a summary of responses to the consultation on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland shortly.

Maria Eagle: I thank the Minister for that illuminating reply. Before the election, the Secretary of State expressed scepticism about legislating for a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights, but does the Minister accept, now that he is in office, that as there was a solemn commitment to doing so, and as that was part of the Belfast agreement, it would present difficulties in the peace process if he were to renege on that commitment now?

Hugo Swire: I do not think that there is any question of reneging. The fact is that the world has moved on; we now have a coalition Government who are committed to looking into a UK-wide Bill of Rights. Of course we remain committed to fulfilling the commitments in the Good Friday agreement, and we are considering the best way of doing that within the architecture of a UK-wide commission. We genuinely believe that if we are to have a UK-wide Bill of Rights, the people of Northern Ireland are best represented within that, rather than by any stand-alone sideshow.

Security Threat

Gregory Campbell: What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister on the level of security threat in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

Hugo Swire: As I said in answer to previous questions, the threat level in Northern Ireland remains severe.

Gregory Campbell: The Minister will be aware that in north-west Northern Ireland, more pipe bombs were exploded or defused in the first five months of this year than in the entire 12 months of 2009. On the Fountain estate in Londonderry, hundreds of attacks have taken place in the past year. What resources are being put into Northern Ireland to ensure that the police-and the Army, if called on-are there to respond to such a threat?

Hugo Swire: The hon. Gentleman will be glad about our announcement this morning on automatic number plate recognition. That will be a useful tool for the Police Service of Northern Ireland. He mentioned pipe bombs; we condemn all those attacks. They are indiscriminate, and they target innocent people. It is worth remembering, when we talk about policing in Northern Ireland, that operational decisions are matters for the Chief Constable, in whom we have great faith and with whom we have regular meetings, and of course the Department of Justice and David Ford. It is perhaps worth remembering that in Northern Ireland, there is still an average of 4.36 police officers per 1,000 of the population. That compares with 2.87 per 1,000 of the population in England and Wales. I am not saying that that is necessarily enough-it can never be enough-but there are police and resources, and we respond to demands from the PSNI.

Alasdair McDonnell: What is the Minister's assessment of the wider security threat in the context of Ulster Volunteer Force activity and the murder of Bobby Moffett?

Hugo Swire: I join most people in this House, I suspect, in condemning the gunning down of Bobby Moffett in the cold light of day in a completely unacceptable way, and I pay tribute to all those people who live in that part of the city and who attended his funeral. The hon. Gentleman would not expect me to make any judgment on the case, as it is obviously the subject of ongoing investigation by the PSNI, but it is not impossible that there will need to be a hard line taken later, in the autumn, when the IMC next reports.

Presbyterian Mutual Society

Conor Burns: What recent discussions he has had on his Department's policy in response to the collapse of the Presbyterian Mutual Society.

Owen Paterson: I have held a number of discussions with both Treasury Ministers and Ministers from the Northern Ireland Executive in recent weeks as we seek to identify options to assist members of the Presbyterian Mutual Society. The reconvened PMS ministerial working group will meet soon to review progress.

Conor Burns: I welcome the Secretary of State's reply, which will give some reassurance to the thousands of people in Northern Ireland affected by the collapse. Does he recognise that there have been 18 months between the collapse of the society and the general election, and that this is another example of the Labour party leaving a mess for us to sort out?

Owen Paterson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, because it was a boast of the previous Prime Minister that
	"No UK depositor has lost money."
	That is why we have decided to grip the issue, and why I will chair the working group. I very much hope that we will come to a resolution soon.

Ian Paisley Jnr: Rather than those on both sides of the House playing party politics with the needs of savers in Northern Ireland, can the Secretary of State tell the House when he will come to a conclusion, so that savers, especially pensioners who are hard pressed at this time, can access and use their money?

Owen Paterson: We have been in power only seven weeks. We have set up the working group. We will set about our work with determination, and I hope we will provide a solution soon.

Bob Stewart: Speaking as someone who was very kindly treated by the Garda when I made a map-reading error in hot pursuit, may I ask my right hon. Friend what the relationship currently is between the Garda and the Police Service of Northern Ireland?

Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but unfortunately his question does not relate to the response to the collapse of the Presbyterian Mutual Society. I hope he will take that gentle admonition in the spirit in which it was intended.

PRIME MINISTER

The Prime Minister was asked-

Engagements

Kevin Brennan: If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 30 June.

David Cameron: This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

Kevin Brennan: Is the reason that the Prime Minister wants to put fewer criminals in jail to do with cutting crime or cutting budgets?

David Cameron: What the Government want to do is clear up the complete mess of the criminal justice system left by the Labour party. Each prison place today costs £45,000, yet 40% of prisoners are back in prison within a year, more than half of them are on drugs, and around 10% of them are foreign national prisoners, who should not be here in the first place.

Nadine Dorries: The American waste giant, Covanta, is proposing to build in my constituency an incinerator about the size of Wembley. Will the Prime Minister give an assurance that decisions about such matters will be made at a local level in future?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is right to raise this, and it is right that decisions should be made locally. We want to make sure that all the latest technology for alternatives to incineration is considered, so that we can make sure that we are using the best ways to achieve a green approach.

Harriet Harman: We were very concerned this morning to read reports that as a result of the right hon. Gentleman's Budget, 1.3 million jobs will be lost. Can he confirm that this was an estimate produced by Treasury officials?

David Cameron: The right hon. and learned Lady should know- [Interruption.] I will give a surprisingly full answer if Opposition Members just sit patiently. This morning the Office for Budget Responsibility produced the full tables for the Budget for employment in the public and the private sector. That never happened under a Labour Government, right? As shown in the Budget, unemployment is forecast to fall every year under this Government, but the tables also show public sector employment. It is interesting that from the tables we can see the effect of Labour's policy before the Budget and the effect of our policy after the Budget. What the figures show is that under Labour's plans, next year there would be 70,000 fewer public sector jobs, and the year after that, there would be 150,000 fewer public sector jobs. We have had the courage to have a two-year pay freeze. I know we have all been watching the football, but that was a spectacular own goal.

Harriet Harman: I know that the right hon. Gentleman has published some new figures today, but it is the figures that he has not published that I am asking about-the figures that show that 1.3 million jobs will be lost. Why will the Prime Minister not publish those Treasury documents? Why is he keeping them hidden?

David Cameron: The forecasts that are published now are independent from the Government. That is the whole point.  [Interruption.] It is no good Opposition Members chuntering about that. They now support the Office for Budget Responsibility, completely independent of Government. The right hon. and learned Lady's approach is extraordinary. Before the election the shadow Chancellor, the then Chancellor, was asked on BBC radio on 23 April 2010, and the transcript says:
	"'Will you acknowledge that public sector jobs will be cut?' Darling: 'It's inevitable.'"

Harriet Harman: But even the OBR says that under the Prime Minister's Budget, unemployment will be higher than it would otherwise have been. It says that on today's figures and it said that on last week's figures. Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the secret Treasury analysis shows that under his Budget, 500,000 jobs will be lost in the public sector, but even more will be lost in the private sector?

David Cameron: The figures published today show 2 million more private sector jobs. They show 1.4 million more people in work at the end of this Parliament. They show unemployment falling every year. It is not really any surprise that the former Labour Minister, Digby Jones, after the Budget said- [ Interruption. ] Why not listen?

Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Prime Minister. I must ask hon. and right hon. Members to listen with some restraint. I want to hear the answers.

David Cameron: The Opposition gave him a peerage. They might as well listen to what he had to say. He said:
	"I think that sign has gone up around the world saying Britain is serious about sorting out its economic mess".
	He is right. It is a pity he did not say it when he was in office.

Harriet Harman: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question about the 1.3 million. He has not agreed to publish those documents. He should know what abject misery this unemployment will cause to individuals, to families and to communities. Can he tell us now how much extra it will cost in unemployment benefits?

David Cameron: The right hon. and learned Lady does not seem to understand. Unemployment will be falling during this Parliament. We have published the full figures, but it is not now us publishing the figures, it is the Office for Budget Responsibility. She must understand that this is something the Labour party now supports. Let me repeat: the figures show that unemployment in the public sector would be higher under Labour's plans next year and the year after. When she gets to her feet perhaps she will tell us whether she now supports the pay freeze to keep unemployment down?

Harriet Harman: Mr. Speaker, you can always tell when the right hon. Gentleman does not want to answer a question, because he asks me a question. He should recognise that under the OBR figures published today, unemployment is higher than it would have been because of his Budget. The same is shown in the OBR report last week. He will not tell us how much more the Treasury will have to pay out in benefits to people without work as a result of his Budget. Will he tell us how much less will be coming in in taxes as a result of fewer people in work because of his Budget?

David Cameron: There will be more people in work. Like every Labour Government, the Opposition left us with unemployment rising and at the end of this Parliament unemployment will be falling. That is the difference. My advice would be to look at the figures before standing up and asking the question. If one looks at the figures one sees higher public sector unemployment next year and the year after under Labour. The right hon. and learned Lady has slotted the ball straight into the back of her own net.

Harriet Harman: We will look at the figures if the right hon. Gentleman will publish them. We know that because this Budget hits jobs, the Treasury will have less money coming in and more money going out. Does not that make reducing the deficit even harder and more painful, with bigger tax rises or even deeper cuts in public services? Why are the Lib Dems just sitting there letting this happen? No one who voted Lib Dem voted for this.

David Cameron: The right hon. Lady talks about reducing the Budget deficit, but we have not heard one single proposal for cutting the deficit. We all know that the Opposition left us the biggest Budget deficit in the G20-the biggest Budget deficit in our history. We have been having a good trawl for the stupidest piece of spending that they undertook, and I think we have found it. It was in her own Department, which spent £2.4 million doing up the Department, including £72,000 each on two-storey meeting pods known as peace pods. This is what they were for- [ Interruption. ] It is true. I am reading from her own Department's staff magazine. Taxpayers have a right to hear where their money went. This is where it went. It was
	"a 21st century...space of quality, air and light, where we can...relax and refuel in a natural ebb and flow."
	That is what has happened. They have gone from peaceniks to peace pods, and bankrupted the country in the process.

Steve Brine: The Prime Minister will be aware that Winchester hosted the largest homecoming parade of returning troops from Afghanistan to date last Wednesday afternoon, when 650 men and women from 11 Light Brigade marched through the city's streets in the presence of the Duchess of Cornwall. Will he join me in paying tribute to those 650 brave men and women, the 64 who did not make it home and, of course, the thousands of Winchester constituents of mine who showed their gratitude for a job well done?

David Cameron: I shall certainly join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to all those who served in Afghanistan. The homecoming parades that have been instituted are an absolutely excellent way of showing the whole country's support for our armed forces. He rightly talks about those who did not come home, and we should also think of those who have come home wounded and will need our support, backing and help in terms of health and mental health services, prosthetic limbs and other things of a really high quality for the rest of their lives. I am determined that we will honour that commitment.

John Cryer: The leaked Treasury papers are absolutely clear that unemployment will rocket by 1.3 million over the next five years. Does the Prime Minister not realise that millions of people watching this who face unemployment over the next few years will think that his comments are tinged with contempt in his refusal to answer perfectly straightforward questions from the Labour Front Bench?

David Cameron: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. We are publishing the figures, and they show exactly what will happen in terms of private sector employment and public sector employment. As the previous Government accepted, there will be reductions in public sector employment, but, according to the Office for Budget Responsibility, which is independent of the Government, the growth in the private sector more than makes up for that. After he has left this room, he should maybe spend some time in a peace pod, wander to the Library and have a look at the figures, where he will see the Office for Budget Responsibility showing unemployment falling every year of this Parliament.

Julian Sturdy: Following last week's much welcomed Budget announcement, does the Prime Minister agree that correcting our deeply unbalanced economy will require fresh investment and enterprise in many northern cities, such as my own of York, which for so long was neglected by the Labour Government? What assurances can he give to me and my constituents that the coalition will do all it can to encourage the economic growth-

Mr Speaker: Order. We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman. We need an answer.

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is quite right to raise that point, because during the past decade the disparity between regions actually got worse. Regional policy has for the past decade been a complete failure, and that is why we are right to cut rates of corporation tax, to say to new businesses, "You can set up without having to pay national insurance on your first 10 employees," to bias that policy in favour of parts of the country where the needs are greatest and to have a £1 billion regional growth fund that can help parts of the country such as the one that he represents.

George Howarth: Does the Prime Minister accept that one consequence of a prison sentence is that those serving them are unavailable to reoffend?

David Cameron: Yes, absolutely-I mean, that is absolutely right. That is why prison is there. I believe that prison can work; the fact is that it is just not working properly at the moment. When we have got those reoffending rates, the cost of each prison place and the appalling problem of drugs in prison, we have got to reform. If the Labour party wants to put itself on the side of the argument of simply defending the status quo, it is making a great mistake. If ever there were a part of our public services that needed radical reform to make sure that prison does work, then now, that is it.

Stephen Lloyd: Given the Chancellor's recent comments stating that the UK is open for business, I should like to ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister why foreign students who come here to study at English language schools for a period greater than six months and contribute an estimated £600 million a year to that vital industry must now already be able to speak English before they can obtain a visa. Will the Prime Minister arrange for me and a delegation to meet the Immigration Minister to sort that out and show that our Government really are open for business?

Mr Speaker: There is a need to be a bit briefer.

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we want to make sure that this country is open for business, and we are taking steps to do that. The point about people coming here to learn English is that, if they come to learn English for less than six months, that is permitted, but clearly there are problems, as everybody knows: too many bogus colleges and too many people pretending to come and study, when really they are coming for work. I shall certainly organise a meeting between my hon. Friend and the Immigration Minister to discuss that, but it is right that we have to deal with the problem of bogus colleges, where there has been so much abuse in recent years.

Meg Munn: The Prime Minister has said that he wants to see more companies owned by their workers-the so-called John Lewis model. Sheffield Forgemasters is one of those companies. Will the Prime Minister therefore now accept that he was wrong to criticise its shareholders for seeking a loan from the Government? They were not seeking to line their own pockets; they have not yet taken a penny in dividends. What they were seeking to do was ensure the future of that company and other jobs in the UK.

David Cameron: The hon. Lady talks about the importance of firms being owned by their own employees; I am looking forward to her support and the support of every Labour Member when we make sure that the Post Office has that sort of ownership model and we get the investment going as well.  [Interruption.] I will take that as a yes, then.

Gary Streeter: About 5,000 young people a year leave local authority care, and without parental support many of them end up on the streets or in our prisons. Do the new Government have any plans to intervene more effectively in the lives of that very vulnerable group, to try to improve their life chances?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this. We really do need to do better as a country. The fact is that around 0.6% of children are in care, but 23% of adult prisoners in our prison system were in care. We have to do better. One of the problems is that, unlike other 18-year-olds, children leaving care aged 18 have nowhere to go and no one to help them. We have to do better. We are looking at this area and I recognise that dealing with the scandal of the poor outcomes for children in care is something, frankly, that everyone in this House ought to support.

Caroline Lucas: Homecoming parades for our very brave soldiers in Afghanistan are incredibly important, but so is an exit strategy from Afghanistan. Given the growing agreement that there is no military solution to the crisis there and that the head of the Army himself has said that we should start talking to the Taliban soon, would the Prime Minister not agree that we should start talking now, so that we can save more lives on all sides and bring our troops home?

David Cameron: May I first of all welcome the hon. Lady to the House? Winning her seat was an incredible achievement for her party, and I know that she will make a huge contribution during this Parliament.
	We discussed Afghanistan at quite some length in the House yesterday. Of course there is no purely military solution; very few insurgencies are ended by purely military means. But I think it is important to continue with the strategy this year of the military surge, to put pressure on the Taliban-and, of course, there should be a political track. But as I said yesterday in the House, we have to recognise that there is a difference between the Taliban linked to al-Qaeda, who want to do so much harm not just in Afghanistan but across our continent as well, and those people who have been caught up in an insurgency for other reasons. Should there be reconciliation and reintegration? Yes, of course; there is, and we can go further. But I think that the things that the hon. Lady is talking about would not be advisable.

Mark Lancaster: As we pay tribute to the members of our armed forces who have made the ultimate sacrifice in Afghanistan, it is worth remembering that for every life lost there, six more are changed for ever through the loss of one or more limbs. Sometimes there are things that money cannot buy, but I welcome the Prime Minister's announcement of an extra £67 million to try to help to counter improvised explosive devices. Will he explain to the House how that money will be spent?

David Cameron: I thank my hon. Friend for his question and pay tribute to him as a member of our Territorial Army reserve. He is himself a bomb disposal expert who has served in Afghanistan. What the bomb disposal and IED teams do is beyond brave. I saw for myself in Camp Bastion their training and instruction. They do a really extraordinary thing for our soldiers and our country. We announced an extra £67 million to give proper protection; £40 million of that is for more protected vehicles. We will also be doubling the number of teams. All the time, we have to keep up with the technology that our enemy is using.
	My hon. Friend mentioned people coming home having lost one limb or two. These are young people, who do not just want to have a new limb and a quiet life-they want to run marathons and to climb Everest. They want to have fulfilled lives. We have to make sure that the support and the very best prosthetic limbs are there for them so that they can lead those lives.

Kate Green: In light of the earlier exchanges about employment and job losses, does not the Prime Minister think that the announcement this week of a further 4,000 full-time-equivalent staff being cut from Jobcentre Plus by next March amounts to a false economy?

David Cameron: First, I welcome the hon. Lady to the House. Not everyone will know that she was head of the Child Poverty Action Group, which has done incredible work in our country over many years. I pay tribute to her for that.
	Let me just repeat: the forecasts show employment rising-that is the key-and employment is the best way of tackling poverty. Of course there are going to be public sector job losses, and of course there are going to be cuts in some programmes-that would have been true under a Labour Government, and it is true under our Government. The key, though, is gripping this problem so that we start to get confidence and growth in our economy and so we start to get the recovery. I say to Labour Members that they have got to engage in this debate rather than play this pathetic game of pretending there would not have been cuts under Labour. There would have been-they announced them, they just never told anyone what they were.

Charlie Elphicke: The campaign of the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband) is so confused these days that he is seeking support from Conservative MPs. He says that the Budget was avoidable. Can I ask the Prime Minister whether it was avoidable or- [ Interruption. ]

Mr Speaker: Order. It is a good idea to start with a question that directly relates to the policy of the Government, but unfortunately this one does not.

Liz Kendall: The paediatric cardiac unit at Glenfield hospital in my constituency provides outstanding care, not only in terms of the quality of surgery but of the excellent nursing, aftercare, and facilities and support for parents. Will the Prime Minister confirm that all aspects of care will be considered as part of the Government's review of children's heart surgery; and will he agree to visit the Glenfield's unit before the review makes its recommendations to see for himself the excellent care it provides?

David Cameron: I quite understand why the hon. Lady raises this question. A national examination of children's cardiac services was started under the last Government, and it will continue under this Government, because we have got to make sure that standards are as high as they can be in this incredibly difficult and technical area. We all have our interests to defend-obviously, I have the John Radcliffe hospital, which does a great job as well, next to my constituency-so she is right to stand up for her constituents in that way. The examination needs to take place. However, one of the keys is going to be protecting, as we believe is necessary, spending in the NHS over this Parliament, with modest, real-terms increases each year. That is our policy; it is no longer the policy of the Labour party. So when difficult decisions have to be made, it would be worse if we were adopting the Labour policy of cutting the NHS.

Robin Walker: Will the Prime Minister join me in welcoming the fact that through protecting investments in health care, the coalition Government have been able to approve the £40 million hospices capital grant, £600,000 of which will go towards the expansion of St Richard's hospice in Worcester, which will benefit at least hundreds of patients a year, with community care, and hundreds of families and care workers across Worcestershire in the years to come?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is right to raise the hospice movement, which has been one of the great successes of the big society that we have in this country. I think we all cherish what the hospice movement does.
	May I take this opportunity, on behalf of the whole House, to pay tribute to my hon. Friend's father, who served in Parliament for 49 years? He gave great service to this country, and he gave great service in Wales. He had many achievements in his long career. If politics is about public service in the national interest, and things that can change people's lives, his pioneering reform of selling council homes to their tenants is something that I think has greatly improved our country.

Gordon Banks: I wonder whether the Prime Minister could tell us who he considers to be right on short prison sentences-the Secretary of State for Justice or the leader of his party in the Scottish Parliament.

David Cameron: The point here is straightforward. We all know we have to keep short sentences for some purposes; I have said that, and the Lord Chancellor has said that. Of course we need to have that in some circumstances, but do we benefit from lots and lots of very short sentences? I think it would be better if we could improve community sentences so that they were tough. One of the problems of the appalling inheritance that we have from the past 10 years is that no one has any faith in the community sentences that ought to be a good alternative to prison.

Tony Baldry: May I urge my right hon. Friend to ignore Simon Heffer when, in  The  Daily Telegraph today, he advocates the complete abolition of the Department for International Development on the basis that charity begins at home? Will he take this opportunity to tell those sections of the Poujadiste press that keep on having a crack at the Government's commitment to international development that our national interest, security stability and sense of humanity very often begin overseas?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is entirely right, and he has a record as a Minister for Africa and a Development Minister in a previous Government. The fact is that we have made a commitment, both nationally and internationally, to increase our aid spending, and I think Britain should be a country that sticks to its word. I have to say, even to those who take a more hard-headed approach to these things, that overseas aid is in our domestic interest. When we think of the problems that world poverty causes, we see that it is in our interest and that of our national security to deliver that aid. Above all, Britain sticking to its word, as I found at the G8 and G20, gives us the opportunity to have some moral authority and moral leadership on this vital issue.

Michael Meacher: How can the Prime Minister justify the fact that hundreds of thousands of public sector workers, the victims of the financial crash, will unquestionably lose their jobs because of the huge public service cuts to come, when the bankers and super-rich, the architects of the financial crash, whose wealth grew by £77 billion in this last year according to  The  Sunday Times rich list, stand to lose neither their jobs, their income nor their wealth? Is that what he means by everyone being in it together?

David Cameron: The right hon. Gentleman fought the last election on £50 billion of unspecified cuts. That is why the figures published today show that public sector job losses would be higher under Labour in the next two years. He can say all he likes about bankers; the fact is, his party would not introduce a bank levy until the rest of the world had decided to do it. We have done it in seven weeks.

Annette Brooke: My constituent Milly, aged five, wrote to me recently asking why there are special days for mothers and fathers and not for children- [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady will be heard, and that is the end of it.

Annette Brooke: Will the Prime Minister commit to working with voluntary organisations to raise the profile of our children's day on 20 November, to celebrate the United Nations convention on the rights of the child and indeed to celebrate the achievements of all our children, whether they be rich or poor?

David Cameron: The hon. Lady has a long record of supporting children's day and the United Nations convention, which was signed in 1990. I think we should raise the profile of the day, and I know she will be pleased to note that the coalition is making good progress on that. Only this morning the Minister of State, Department for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), held a seminar about special needs children and how we must ensure that their needs are properly protected under this coalition Government.

Michael Connarty: The Prime Minister might have noticed that the people of Scotland did not choose his party, except in one seat out of 59, and they did not choose the Conservatives' poodles, the Liberal Democrats, either. Can he assure the House, as an absolute chill runs through Scotland at the 1.3 million hidden job losses that he did not publish, that any proposals for cuts in public services and expenditure in Scotland, and any Barnett formula cuts, will be brought before the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs- [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but the question is too long.

David Cameron: I am well aware that the Conservative party did not sweep Scotland, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for reminding me of it.
	What I said I would do if we formed a Government was to go straight to Scotland and Wales to meet the First Ministers and have- [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman has asked a question; he might as well listen to the answer before he starts shouting at me. I said that I would have proper meetings and have a respect agenda in which we respected the devolved Assemblies. I have to say that under the last Government there was a whole year during the financial crisis when the Prime Minister of our country did not even meet the First Minister of Scotland. That will not happen under this Government-we believe in respect.

Matthew Hancock: May I tell the Prime Minister how pleased my constituents were when he found £50 million to help further education colleges that were promised funding but left high and dry by the previous Administration? Will he ensure that the application for an FE college in Haverhill in my constituency is given the attention it deserves, so that Haverhill can get the FE college that it is promised?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes a very good public spending application, and I am sure that the Treasury will have been listening carefully. He also makes a very good point: even in a difficult Budget, when reductions had to be made, we have boosted spending on FE colleges and increased the number of apprenticeships, after the shambles left by the last lot.

Graham Jones: The  Local Government Chronicle has listed my constituency as the one that has received the biggest cuts in Britain-nearly £3 million at district level. As the Prime Minister will be aware, it is an area of poor health, low incomes and some of the worst housing in Britain. In fact, at the weekend the Liberal Democrat leader of Burnley borough council, the neighbouring council, said:
	"The cuts announced by the Government are hitting deprived areas like Burnley much harder than the more affluent areas."
	Does the Prime Minister agree with his colleague in the Liberal Democrats?

David Cameron: Of course there will be difficult decisions in the Budget and on public spending reductions. Everybody should know that and should be honest about it rather than pretending that they would not have happened if we had had a different Government. What we will do is help areas of need through the tax changes we are making and also through the regional development grant of £1 billion, for which areas such as Hyndburn are able to bid to ensure that they get an increased private sector, to try to get the motor of our economy going again. That is absolutely vital.

Speaker's Statement

Mr Speaker: On Monday the shadow Home Secretary, in exchanges across the Floor of the House, and the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), in a subsequent point of order, complained that details of a Home Office statement on non-EU migration had been passed to the media before the statement itself was delivered to the House. I undertook to look into the matter and to report back to the House. Having made inquiries, I am now able to update the House.
	I have established that at a Home Office press briefing on Monday morning, copies of a statement were made available to journalists- [ Interruption. ] Order. The content of that statement was very similar to that delivered orally in the House by the Home Secretary on Monday afternoon. As Members know, I am concerned that Ministers should make key statements to the House before they are made elsewhere. In this case the opposite happened, and this was a discourtesy to the House. The Home Secretary is present, and will wish to take this opportunity to say something.

Theresa May: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I deeply regret the fact that on Monday, in my attempt to assist the House by changing from making a written ministerial statement to making an oral statement, the copy of the statement that would have been made in writing to the House was handed out to the press before I made my oral statement. I take full responsibility for that, and I have no hesitation in apologising to the House and in assuring the House that I will ensure that it will not happen again.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Home Secretary for what she has said, and I will take- [ Interruption. ] Order. I will take no points of order on that matter.

Meg Munn: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On Tuesday 22 June the Deputy Prime Minister told the House that he was due to meet with the chief executive of Sheffield Forgemasters the following Friday. I understand that no such meeting took place. Can you inform me how the Deputy Prime Minister can set the record straight?

Mr Speaker: It is not a responsibility of the Chair- [ Interruption. ] Order. The House really must calm down; otherwise it gives a very bad impression to the public who take an interest in our proceedings. A commitment may or may not have been made. The matter is important and the hon. Lady has registered her concern forcefully on behalf of her constituents. The matter is on the record-and I suspect that she will pass copies of the record to those in her constituency interested in it-but it is not a matter for the Chair.

Geoffrey Robinson: Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. You have recognised that it is an important issue. It is all the more important because the Deputy Prime Minister and many Ministers from his party in the coalition have been so disrespectful and have made suggestions about the personal motivation of the chief executive, whom he was due to meet, that have to be repudiated. I am grateful, therefore, that you took this matter seriously, sir.

Mr Speaker: I take all matters seriously, but I genuinely do not think that this is a point of order for the Chair. I have the very highest respect for the hon. Gentleman, who has long service in the House, but it is difficult for me to see how he can have a point of order further to a point of order that I have just ruled is not a point of order. However, he has raised his point, even if it is not a point of order, and he has registered his views firmly upon the record.

Michael Connarty: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have often said that you are here to protect the House and to allow it to do its business in holding the Government to account. Will you take up with the Government the fact that although we have had a European summit and a number of European Council meetings, and although five stalwart Labour Members have already volunteered for the European Scrutiny Committee, we have no such Committee to scrutinise the Government's behaviour in Europe? This is the latest that that Committee has ever been set up.

Mr Speaker: I am afraid that that is not a task for the Chair- [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman will not be too disappointed if he waits. He was looking uncertain, but I am trying to allay his uncertainty. He should be grateful to me.

Michael Connarty: I did not say anything.

Mr Speaker: Order. I do not want sedentary gestures from the hon. Gentleman. I am trying to help him. The matter is not one for the Chair. The information is now firmly in the public domain. Of course we are all in favour of the speedy composition of Committees with important scrutiny work to do, and the Committee to which he refers, which he has himself chaired with distinction, is an important case in point.

Meg Hillier: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that you are very keen that Members of the House should always be factually accurate. On Tuesday 22 June, in answer to questions, the Deputy Prime Minister cited my constituency and said that it had an electorate of 52,000. In fact, on 6 May the electorate was 72,920. I would hope that you, Mr Speaker, would remind Government members of the importance of being factually accurate, when they have all the resources of Government to enable them to quote accurate figures, not figures plucked from the tops of their heads.

Mr Speaker: My response to the hon. Lady's point of order-I respect her for raising it-is that, as the Speaker, I am keen on accuracy, but it is not my responsibility, from the Chair, to enforce it. However, she has registered her views-which, I sense, was an important part of her purpose.

Chris Bryant: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Honestly, this is not about the previous matter, although it is slightly allied. I am glad that you are being short with Ministers these days-and there have been other instances, I am afraid, in which Ministers have continued to brief the papers very substantially. I think that we heard another example of it from the Prime Minister today. He referred to plans for Royal Mail that have not been explained to the House, but which have been substantially trailed around the newspapers. Will you investigate that issue as well?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman suggests that I have been short with Ministers. I am not sure about that, but I would say to him, and the House, that I have always been short-and I am entirely untroubled by the fact, which is probably just as well. On his point of order, I would say it was a good try, but he needs to explore the matter in other ways. Knowing his indefatigability, I feel sure that that is what he is about to do.

Derek Twigg: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You related a specific instance concerning the Home Secretary, and we have now had two apologies from Ministers in the past 24 hours. Will you discuss with the Leader of the House how we can train and encourage Ministers to have due respect for the House and its Members?

Mr Speaker: I think that the hon. Gentleman is seeking to continue the debate. What I have said on this matter is very explicit. Today's exchanges speak for themselves, but again, as a committed constitutionalist, he has put his concerns on the record, as he was perfectly entitled to do.

Alec Shelbrooke: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Could you advise the House on how we can stop the danger of Prime Minister's Question Time slipping into Opposition statement time?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman will accept that that is a matter for the Chair, and I hope that he will be comfortable that I will discharge my obligations to the House appropriately.

Barry Gardiner: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. At 11.24 this morning I went to the Vote Office to ask for a copy of the second report by the independent Committee on Climate Change, on energy. I thought that appropriate, as this afternoon's debate is about energy efficiency. Unfortunately, the Vote Office informed me that the report had not yet been made available to it, and that this followed a pattern from last year. Can we ensure that in future the reports from the independent Committee on Climate Change are made available to the Vote Office promptly?

Mr Speaker: It is important for the House and its opportunity to debate matters of public policy properly that relevant documents be made available in the Vote Office in time for debates. The hon. Gentleman has registered his point with his characteristic force. It is on the record, and those on the Treasury Bench-including appropriate Ministers-will have heard it.

Joan Walley: Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you could perhaps encourage the promotion of the report of the Committee on Climate Change by Parliament-because it is a report to Parliament-rather than its being launched elsewhere.

Mr Speaker: I fear that that is somewhat outwith the scope of the Chair. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her confidence in my capacities, and her desire to extend my agenda, but I am not sure that I can agree to her request on this occasion.
	Members have been waiting patiently and we are grateful to them, but if there are no further points of order, we come now to the presentation of Bills.

BILLS PRESENTED

Lawful Industrial Action (Minor Errors) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	John McDonnell, supported by Kate Hoey, Tony Lloyd, Mr David Anderson, Michael Connarty, Austin Mitchell, Mr Frank Doran, Kelvin Hopkins, Jim Sheridan, Mr David Crausby, Ian Lavery and John Cryer, presented a Bill to amend section 232B of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 to extend the circumstances in which, by virtue of that section, industrial action is not to be treated as excluded from the protection of section 219 of that Act.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 22 October , and to be printed (Bill  4 ) with explanatory notes (Bill 4-EN) .

Sustainable Livestock Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Robert Flello, supported by Andrew George, Mr Philip Hollobone, Caroline Lucas, Alun Michael, Zac Goldsmith, Martin Horwood, Hazel Blears, Henry Smith, Mr Michael Meacher and Peter Bottomley, presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State to improve the sustainability of the production, processing, marketing, manufacturing, distribution and consumption of products derived to any substantial extent from livestock; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 12 November, and to be printed (Bill 5 )  with explanatory notes (Bill 5-EN) .

Public Services (Social Enterprise And Social Value) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Chris White presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State and local authorities to publish strategies in connection with promoting social enterprise; to enable communities to participate in the formulation and implementation of those strategies; to require that public sector contracts include provisions relating to social outcomes and social value; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 19 November, and to be printed (Bill 6 ).

Daylight Saving Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Rebecca Harris, supported by Joan Walley, Mr Tim Yeo, Mr Frank Field, Mr Greg Knight, Caroline Lucas, Stephen Phillips, Mr Adam Holloway, Stephen Pound and Zac Goldsmith, presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State to conduct a cross-departmental analysis of the potential costs and benefits of advancing time by one hour for all, or part of, the year; to require the Secretary of State to take certain action in the light of that analysis; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 3 December, and to be printed (Bill 7 ).

Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Mr Greg Knight, supported by Sir Alan Beith, Kevin Brennan, John Hemming, Mr William Cash, Mr Gary Streeter, Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger, Chris Bryant, Mr Christopher Chope, Mr Alan Meale, Richard Ottaway and Philip Davies, presented a Bill to amend the law relating to the distribution of the estates of deceased persons; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 21 January, and to be printed (Bill 8 )  with explanatory notes (Bill 8-EN) .

Anonymity (Arrested Persons) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Anna Soubry presented a Bill to prohibit the publication of certain information regarding persons who have been arrested until they have been charged with an offence; to set out the circumstances where such information can be published without committing an offence; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 4 February, and to be printed (Bill 9 ).

Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Harriett Baldwin, supported by Mr David Davis, Tracey Crouch, Bob Stewart, Andrea Leadsom, Esther McVey, Damian Hinds, David Tredinnick, Mr Peter Bone, Chris Heaton-Harris, Richard Graham and Mr Charles Walker, presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State, when preparing draft legislation for publication, to do so in such a way that the effect of that legislation on England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is separately and clearly identified; to require the Secretary of State to issue a statement to the effect that in his or her view the provisions of the draft legislation are in accordance with certain principles relating to territorial extent; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 11 February , and to be  printed (Bill 10 ).

Gangmasters Licensing (Extension to Construction Industry) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Mr David Hamilton, supported by Sandra Osborne, Mr Jim Hood, Mr David Anderson, Jim Sheridan, Alun Michael, John Robertson, Jim McGovern, Ian Lavery, Mr Stephen Hepburn and Jack Dromey, presented a Bill to apply the provisions of the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 to the construction industry; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 3 December, and to be printed (Bill 11 ).

Public Bodies (Sustainable Food) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Joan Walley, supported by Mr Adrian Sanders, Alison McGovern, Martin Caton, Caroline Lucas, Mark Lazarowicz, Peter Bottomley, Mr Mike Hancock and Annette Brooke, presented a Bill to make provision for the creation of a Code regarding the procurement of sustainable food by public bodies; for the review and development of the Code; for the regulatory enforcement of the Code by public bodies; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 12 November, and to be printed (Bill 12 ).

Sale of Tickets (Sporting and Cultural Events) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Mrs Sharon Hodgson, supported by Mr Tom Watson, Chris Bryant, Paul Farrelly, Mr Russell Brown, David Wright, Mark Tami, Lyn Brown, Roberta Blackman-Woods, Mary Creagh, Rachel Reeves and Catherine McKinnell, presented a Bill to regulate the selling of tickets for certain sporting and cultural events; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 21 January , and to b e printed (Bill 13 )  with explanatory notes (Bill 13-EN).

Fire Safety (Protection of Tenants) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Mr Adrian Sanders, supported by Sir Menzies Campbell, Martin Caton, Annette Brooke, Peter Bottomley, Stephen Williams, Jonathan Edwards, Dr John Pugh, Mr Tom Watson, Mr John Leech, Paul Flynn and Lorely Burt, presented a Bill to require landlords to provide smoke alarms in rented accommodation; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 19 November , and to be printed (Bill  14 ) .

Planning (Opencast Mining Separation Zones) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Andrew Bridgen, supported by Heather Wheeler, Nigel Mills, Paul Murphy, Nigel Adams and Mark Pritchard, presented a Bill to require planning authorities to impose a minimum distance between opencast mining developments and residential properties; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 11 February , and to be printed (Bill  15 ) .

Coinage (Measurement) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Mark Lancaster, supported by Mr Adam Holloway, Mr Stewart Jackson, Mr Lee Scott, Mr Brian Binley, Mr Tobias Ellwood, Alec Shelbrooke, Julian Sturdy, Iain Stewart, Chris Heaton-Harris, Mr Ben Wallace and Mr Rob Wilson, presented a Bill to make provision about the arrangements for measuring the standard weight of coins.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 4 February, and to be printed (Bill 16 )  with explanatory notes (Bill 16-EN).

Sports Grounds Safety Authority Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Jonathan Lord presented a Bill to confer further powers on the Football Licensing Authority and to amend its name; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 22 October, and to be printed (Bill 17 )  with explanatory notes (Bill 17-EN).

Wreck Removal Convention Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Dr Thérèse Coffey, supported by Mr Matthew Offord, presented a Bill to implement the Nairobi International Convention on the Removal of Wrecks 2007.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 19 November, and to be printed (Bill 18 )  with explanatory notes (Bill 18-EN).

Financial Services (Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Lorely Burt, supported by Simon Hughes, Mr Lee Scott, Richard Burden, Stephen Williams, Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger, Mr George Mudie, Mr Mike Hancock, Heather Wheeler, Meg Munn, Mr Andrew Love and Jack Dromey, presented a Bill to ensure that ancillary pricing terms in personal financial services contracts can be assessed for fairness; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 12 November , and to be printed (Bill  19 ) .

Face Coverings (Regulation) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Mr Philip Hollobone presented a Bill to regulate the wearing of certain face coverings; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 3 December , and to be printed (Bill  20 ) .

Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Nigel Adams, supported by Jonathan Reynolds, Greg Mulholland, Stuart Andrew, Gordon Henderson, Andrew Percy, Mike Weatherley, Andrew Stephenson, Stephen McPartland, Priti Patel, Philip Davies and Henry Smith, presented a Bill to enable local planning authorities to require planning permission prior to the demolition or change of use of premises or land used or formerly used to provide a local service; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 21 January, and to be printed (Bill 21 ) .

Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims (Amendment) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Sir Paul Beresford presented a Bill to amend section 5 of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004 to include serious harm to a child or vulnerable adult; to make consequential amendments to the Act; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on  Friday 21 January, and to be printed (Bill 22 )  with explanatory notes (Bill 22-EN).

Secured Lending Reform Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	George Eustice presented a Bill to make provision regarding the rights of secured debtors; to reform the rights of certain creditors to enforce their security; to make other provision regarding secured lending; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 22 October, and to be printed (Bill 23).

Energy Efficiency

Gregory Barker: I beg to move,
	That this House has considered the matter of progress and prospects in energy efficiency.
	Within the first days of taking office, the Prime Minister pledged to make this new coalition the greenest Government ever, and we are determined to deliver on that promise. Energy efficiency, the subject of today's debate, is at the very heart of our greening programme. Better energy efficiency offers a genuine win-win, because it not only enhances the competitiveness of our economy, but is also good for the environment in cutting carbon emissions. It is good for energy security in reducing our reliance on imported fossil fuels, and it is good for hard-pressed families, saving them money currently wasted heating inefficient and cold homes. Energy efficiency is not just a means to an end; it is a great thing in itself. In these times of rising bills and tight family budgets, there is one overarching simple truth: the cheapest energy we all have to pay for is the energy we do not use.
	President Obama has gone even further. He recently said:
	"Insulation is sexy stuff... Here's what's sexy about it: saving money".
	In our own way-a more modest way-we are determined to make it sexy too, because for too long, energy efficiency has been the poor relation of British energy policy. Too many politicians have talked the talk, but failed to deliver. Energy efficiency has too frequently been relegated to the fluffy optional extra end of the energy policy agenda. Energy efficiency, however, is the key benchmark of a globally competitive 21st century economy.
	Yet on the key test of energy efficiency, the UK currently trails behind most of our European competitors and risks slipping even further behind. If Members pardon the pun, we lag behind Germany, Holland, Spain and Italy, to name but a few. The average British home uses more energy than a home in Sweden-a country partly within the Arctic circle. One in five of our homes still has the lowest energy-efficiency rating.

Angus MacNeil: On the point of energy efficiency in comparison with Sweden, I understand that there is considerable use of heat pumps-both ground source and air source heat pumps-in Sweden. The previous Government gave assistance for the installation of heat pumps; will this Government continue in that vein?

Gregory Barker: We are very keen on heat pumps, but those pumps are not an energy-efficiency device; they are a renewable-energy device. Today, we are obviously concerned primarily about energy efficiency, but I take the hon. Gentleman's point on board, and we are certainly keen to encourage the use of a diverse range of new renewable technologies.

Angus MacNeil: Using 1 kW of electricity, an air source heat pump can generate 2.5 kW of heat and a ground source heat pump can generate up to 4 kW of heat. I would argue that that is quite an efficient use of energy.

Gregory Barker: And the hon. Gentleman would be absolutely right to do so.
	Looking beyond homes, about one in 10 of our businesses and public buildings has a G rating and fewer than one in 100 has an A rating. Something must change, and it has got to change big and change now. But here is the good news: the UK has the potential to lead the way on energy efficiency, and our transformational agenda is a huge commercial opportunity worth billions of pounds for British business, with the potential for new jobs, technology and innovation in every single part of the UK. The challenge for our new Government is to spur consumers and businesses to take action, because, to date, successive Government programmes have simply failed to engage on the scale that we need. Some progress has been made in recent years, and I do not belittle the good intentions of the previous Administration, but despite some interesting initiatives, nothing we have seen so far has been commensurate with the enormous size of the challenge we face.

Mary Creagh: I have received a letter from Mr Cameron Holroyd of Kingspan Solar in my constituency, which manufactures solar panels. He is very concerned that the new Government have not yet stated publicly whether they intend to proceed with the renewables heat obligation. Can the Minister tell us when he will respond to the recent consultation, and thereby give firms in my constituency, and consumers who may be planning to invest, some sort of comfort that that support will go ahead?

Gregory Barker: Renewable heat is a renewable form of generation; it is not equivalent to energy efficiency. However, we are committed to an ambitious renewable heat agenda. We have a challenging renewable energy target and renewable heat will be a key part of that. We will be looking at how to move forward and at having the right incentives in place. Because we are aware of the concerns of businesses, such as the one the hon. Lady mentions in her constituency, we will be making an announcement on this as soon as possible.

Neil Parish: rose-

Barry Gardiner: I welcome the Minister to his position. He has taken a long and careful interest in the matters for which he has responsibility, and I welcome his enthusiasm. So far in this debate, however, he has been quick to parry any questions that are not specifically about energy efficiency and has responded in a very constrained manner. If we are to have the debate that all of us would wish this afternoon, we need to be able to discuss the energy context in which it takes place and the broader financial measures that will be available to the industry in the future, in order to consider the wider aspects of the green deal the Minister has talked about.

Gregory Barker: Obviously, I take on board the hon. Gentleman's comments, and he is an expert in this field, but the key point I made at the beginning of my speech is that energy efficiency has always been the poor relation and that all too often people leap to discuss other, perhaps more sexy, matters such as heat pumps, the renewables heat incentive or renewable energy. While I want a full debate-and, of course, I will answer the hon. Gentleman's questions as best I can-I also want to focus the discussion on energy efficiency, because it is the most important and the best value-for-money consideration in terms of saving carbon.

Neil Parish: rose-

Chris Williamson: Can the Minister confirm that the coalition parties will agree to implement the previous Government's commitment to ensure that all new homes are carbon-neutral by 2015?

Gregory Barker: That is an important target. We are committed to carbon neutrality, and I know that my colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government are looking to see if there is any room for making the target more effective. Perhaps I may write to the hon. Gentleman with the very latest on that?

Neil Parish: rose-

David Wright: The Minister and I served together on the Environmental Audit Committee a few years ago. Will he comment on the future of the boiler scrappage scheme, a tremendous energy-efficiency measure that has been very successfully delivered, and will he look at the possibility of extending the scheme to cover gas fires? A company in my constituency produces very energy-efficient gas fires. If we were to support it, we would see real progress not only in boiler scrappage, but in the scrappage of other lower performing products such as wasteful gas fires.

Neil Parish: rose-

Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman is right: the boiler scrappage scheme was highly effective. Although it was not a large scheme, it was both very good and very timely, and I will be closely examining whether we ought to take it further. I know that the hon. Gentleman has expertise on this, and if he would like to talk to me about it, I would be very grateful for the opportunity to pick his brains.

Mr Speaker: Order. May I interrupt the Minister to try to help a new Member? I very gently say to the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) that whatever gifts and traits the Minister possesses, he does not have eyes in the back of his head, so if the hon. Gentleman wishes to intervene, it is not enough simply to stand; he must make himself audible.

Gregory Barker: rose-

Neil Parish: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Gregory Barker: With pleasure.

Neil Parish: Thank you for your advice, Mr Speaker.
	My hon. Friend has talked about energy saving on the continent, and one thing that they do very well there is install central boilers for different sorts of energy generation when constructing new housing developments. That must be done at the planning stage, of course, so that the amount of hot water going to each house can be metered and households can then pay for their own supply, but central boilers can produce savings of up to 50%. Will my hon. Friend the Minister consider that option?

Gregory Barker: Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I am very interested in such matters, and think there is far greater scope for us to be much more ambitious in terms of community combined heat and power. Such a decentralised energy agenda offers huge scope in Britain. However, for a variety of reasons, both local as well as central Government ones, we have not pushed it. In countries such as the Netherlands and Denmark, however, community combined heat and power make up a substantial part of energy output. As my hon. Friend says, it is much more efficient and I assure him we are looking into it.
	As I have said, despite some interesting initiatives in recent years, nothing is commensurate with the enormous size of the challenge we face. The reality is that we still have a multi-billion pound investment gap. It is hardly surprising, however, that progress has been patchy. Since 1997, we have had a veritable alphabet soup of acronyms, schemes and quangos, leaving both the consumer and business somewhat bewildered: EEC, CERT, CESP, LCIF, EST, LCCC, CT, ETF, CRC and CCA. The list goes on and on, and each scheme is accompanied by new pamphlets, advertising and messages, further complicating the landscape for confused consumers and businesses. Individually, all those schemes have merit, but taken together they have failed to deliver on the scale that we need. The fact is that we need to pick up the pace dramatically if we are to reach the remaining 14 million households in the UK within a meaningful time scale.
	It is clear that in these difficult times, with a record deficit, the current model is simply not up to the scale of the task. We need a game changer. We must remove the blinkers that have constrained previous policy thinking. We need to bring in new models of installation, innovation to drive down costs, new financing methods and new players to the market to deliver on a far more ambitious scale.

Brian Binley: On innovation, the Minister will respect the fact that coal remains a vital part of our energy requirement for the future. When the Prime Minister was Leader of the Opposition, he promised to create four carbon capture and storage-equipped power plants. Will the Minister give us a quick update on progress, and perhaps a timetable for that, because it plays a major part in the objectives he wishes to reach?

Gregory Barker: My hon. Friend is an expert in this field. He is chair of the all-party group on clean coal, so I speak with respect for his expertise. He is right to say that the coalition Government are committed to carbon capture and storage, which will be a major plank in our efforts to decarbonise our energy supply by 2030; we are committed to the generation of 5 GW of CCS by 2020. We see the potential of CCS, not just for our domestic use and as part of our plan to decarbonise the economy, but as a huge potential export industry for the UK in which we can not only capture new markets for British jobs, but help the world in striving to decarbonise the global economy.

Tobias Ellwood: My hon. Friend talks about game changers, so may I recommend another important one, which will cost him not a penny? We could move our clocks forward by one hour to take advantage of the last bit of energy that we have in this world-the sun. It seems completely wrong that our working day is out of alignment with that free energy source. I am happy to provide him with a copy of a study showing the benefits, which would include Scotland too.

Gregory Barker: That is a very interesting point. I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) will be introducing a private Member's Bill to that effect, in order to test the opinion of the House on this matter. I do not believe that that subject was covered in the coalition agreement, so I am sorry but I cannot give any commitment on it.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Gregory Barker: I shall make a little progress before I take further interventions.
	The Government want to end short-term, stop-start schemes. We need a bold long-term approach that will deliver certainty and stability, and will unlock private capital and trigger green investment right across the economy. We must give businesses the confidence to invest, not just in the infrastructure of our buildings, but in developing new skills and training programmes in order to help create the thousands of new jobs that could follow. These would be jobs that could provide decent salaries to support families and build careers of which people could be proud. We must empower British business, not burden it. We must use smart legislation to incentivise the wealth creators and the innovators. Local firms and enterprising local communities must be encouraged to be part of the new solution.

Mary Creagh: I am grateful to the Minister for giving way to me for a second time. On his point about innovation and local firms, may I say that Logicor Ltd, a firm in my constituency, has developed a plug that automatically turns off after a set period of time? When people iron for three quarters of an hour or an hour-or, in my case, five minutes-the plug will then automatically turn off, so there is no danger of someone forgetting about the iron, leaving it on and potentially setting their house on fire. Such appliances have huge potential to make energy and financial savings for homes, be it through turning off the light on someone's microwave or the light on their dishwasher-those devices also use energy. Small companies face the problem of obtaining certification through the carbon emissions reduction target-CERT-scheme and huge issues relating to cash flow, because if they are going to manufacture in China, they have to save, pay the bills up front and then get the money back. How does the Minister propose to provide real help on this? Will he work with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to ensure that small companies such as Logicor Ltd can be given the financial support to deliver these energy-efficient products to the nation?

Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently suggest to the House that we also require efficiency in interventions, which are gradually becoming a little longer?

Gregory Barker: That is an excellent subject for an Adjournment debate, but perhaps we have just had it. I entirely accept the hon. Lady's point, but ultimately the private sector is the best engine of ingenuity and growth, and it is not the role of Government to pick winners such as that company and give them special treatment. However, I agree that there is a role for Government in creating an enabling, encouraging and supportive framework for enterprise. I can assure her that increased cross-cutting work has been taking place across Government, involving colleagues from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Treasury and the Department for Education, to ensure that the right frameworks and the appropriate support are in place.
	I shall now draw the House back to my speech. What needs to change? As a first step, I am announcing today my intention not only to extend CERT, but to refocus it radically. It obliges energy companies to carry out energy-efficiency measures in people's homes and it has historically involved a range of other things too. CERT will be extended until the end of 2012, but the original scheme has not been without criticism, much of it justified. So CERT will be refocused on those most cost-effective measures that can make a real difference to the energy efficiency of our constituents' homes, the most obvious being insulation.
	Over the new extension period we will require the big energy companies to deliver far more insulation than originally planned, and the new target on lagging lofts alone will be the equivalent to covering Wembley football pitch more than 35,000 times. The new extension of CERT will work in tandem with the roll-out of our pioneering green deal. In order to bring greater focus to the project, I will insist that more than two thirds of this new carbon target must be delivered through approved, professionally installed loft, cavity wall and solid wall insulation. We will act to stamp out the mistakes of the past. We will introduce a complete ban on the subsidy of compact fluorescent lighting, thereby ending the farce of people having cupboards full of light bulbs which save no energy at all. We will go further. We are actively talking to industry about similar restrictions on other low-value gadgets and appliances. There will be no short cuts or get-outs for the big six under this Government.

Martin Horwood: I welcome the Minister to his responsibilities. On low-energy light bulbs, he is right to criticise aspects of the CERT scheme, but one promising new development was the inclusion of the replacement of halogen lights, which are extremely energy-inefficient, with new, more efficient forms of technology. I declare an interest, because two companies in my constituency promote alternatives to halogen lighting.

Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that some very exciting developments are taking place in lighting, not the least of which will be light-emitting diode-LED-technology in the longer term. However, we must be brutal and realistic in the use of CERT; we must opt for the most effective, most value-for-money carbon abatement schemes. That means opting for loft insulation, because any exercise that one chooses to undertake shows that key insulation delivered to our constituents' homes offers the best value for money and the best use in terms of carbon abatement. We have to be far more focused on that. I checked how many light bulbs had been distributed as a result of the previous CERT scheme and I found that the answer was a phenomenal number. This begs the old question of how many light bulbs it takes to change a Labour Government-the answer turned out to be 262 million.

Joan Ruddock: A vast number of light bulbs were sent out, but does the Minister deny that that was an appropriate action to take at a time when the low-energy light bulbs on the supermarket shelves were far more expensive than ordinary light bulbs and consumers were very resistant to change? We encountered all forms of resistance but, despite that, by sending those low-energy light bulbs out we got them into people's homes, which saved people money and saved energy and carbon emissions.

Gregory Barker: The right hon. Lady is right and, of course, this is not a black and white issue. However, the bottom line is that if one has a finite pot of money to spend, light bulbs do not represent the most efficient way to save energy or carbon. As she knows, the most efficient way of doing that is to insulate, particularly given that we need to do so much more for the fuel-poor and there is so much more that we need to do overall. We must be focused, given the finite pot of money available. I do, however, take her point.

Alan Reid: I welcome the Minister to the Government. I was delighted by his announcement the CERT scheme will be extended and will concentrate on insulation, but I am sure that he is aware that the National Insulation Association has expressed concern that it is so heavily dependent on the CERT scheme that unless the scheme is extended very soon, its members could well run out of work over the summer. The NIA has asked for the regulations to be passed before the start of the summer recess, so I hope that the Minister will be able to lay these regulations before Parliament before then.

Gregory Barker: Obviously my announcement is effective today. We hope to lay the regulations before Parliament before we rise for the summer, because I am fully aware that there has been uncertainty in the market, and that is what we aim to eliminate.

Angus MacNeil: Usually, house construction is a great battle between insulation, as the Minister has mentioned, and ventilation. The part of the world that I come from suffers from having to have the same ventilation standards as an urban area in Kent; the rural west coast of the Outer Hebrides certainly does not need the same amount of ventilation as might perhaps be needed in Kent. However, we are stuck with that and the result-I am sure that the situation is the same in other places in the country-is that once the completion certificate is achieved and received, the house builder goes round with a tube of mastic or silicon and blocks off the vents that have been placed unnecessarily. Perhaps ventilation could be seen as part of the argument for energy efficiency, too.

Gregory Barker: That is a very good point. I think that my colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government would have direct ministerial responsibility for that point, but it is worth while, and if the hon. Gentleman would care to write to me about it I would be happy to take it up.
	We will go further. We are also talking to industry about similar restrictions on other low-value gadgets and appliances. All these new measures are specifically designed to do more for the fuel-poor, because we fully recognise that fuel poverty is a growing challenge, with the number of households in fuel poverty having risen every year since 2004, to 4.6 million households in England alone in 2009. Given that legacy of rising fuel poverty, we are creating a new CERT category of those who have the greatest need, in addition to the priority group of vulnerable households, which will already account for at least 40% of the total CERT extension measures. Pensioners, people with children and the disabled will form a super-priority group on whom at least 15% of the new programme must be targeted. That means that more than £400 million will be focused over the next 18 months on the poorest and most vulnerable.

Barry Gardiner: Would the Minister be good enough to clarify whether, when he says families with children, he means all families with children or whether he is talking about families that are in receipt of working families tax credit and so on? Is it targeted specifically at the poor or will it include all families with children?

Gregory Barker: It is targeted at all people with children-that is, at all households where there are young children and where income is low. I would be happy to write to the hon. Gentleman with further details. We will need to bring these measures to the House, and perhaps we could debate that point then.

Luciana Berger: Will the Minister kindly let us know whether it will extend to pensioners as well?

Gregory Barker: Yes indeed. I think I mentioned pensioners in my speech and I can give the hon. Lady that assurance.

Alan Whitehead: Does the hon. Gentleman intend to provide any additional facilities for ensuring that the extra categories that he has mentioned that will be a part of CERT can be identified by those energy companies that are required to identify them to and take action, or is the 15% target that he has suggested an approximation based on what the energy companies actually do?

Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman will know that data sharing is a very difficult issue, to which there is no easy ready answer. I do not underestimate it-any attempt to focus in such a way is in some way problematic, given the sometimes limited tools that we have and the restrictions on sharing data. We are considering that project in the Department, because we realise that data sharing poses real challenges. All I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that we will use our best endeavours and, if he has interesting and innovative ideas on how we can make it effective, we will try to frame them in the regulations that we will table before the House rises. I fully take his point on board; data sharing to ensure that we target the most vulnerable is a challenge.

Anne Main: Will the Minister outline whether people in receipt of the higher disability living allowance, who often have impaired mobility, will be included in the super-priority group that he has just mentioned, as they often have a greater need of heating?

Gregory Barker: I am very happy to confirm that for my hon. Friend, who takes a keen interest in these matters. I can also confirm, in response to the question that I was asked earlier about children, that we will focus on those in receipt of child tax credits whose income is less than £16,190.

Mark Durkan: Given the importance that the Minister rightly attaches to fuel poverty and the categories that he has said should be prioritised, does he believe that 15% will be adequate? If, in the context of spending pressures, the budget for the overall programme is cut, will he enhance their prioritisation by going above 15% of his residual budget?

Gregory Barker: Of course, CERT is an obligation on the fuel companies and is not part of the Treasury tax and spending regime as such. It will not be included in the comprehensive spending review. I share the hon. Gentleman's concerns, given that we want to focus on the fuel poor and that 15% seems a relatively limited amount of money. That is why, as I am going to say-he is pre-empting my speech-when we come to consider the long-term basis for the right form of supplier obligation when CERT ends at the end of 2012, we will need to ensure that it is effectively focused on the most vulnerable households and on the fuel-poor. That will be the key consideration when we are looking to frame a new and appropriate supplier obligation.
	As I have said, the green deal is a real game changer. It takes policy out of Whitehall and on to the high street. The green deal is a dramatic change from the status quo. The green deal, we believe, will fundamentally alter the scale of delivery. In terms of scale, to put it in context, the green deal is even more ambitious than Mrs Thatcher's sale of council houses in the 1980s. Whereas that transformed the lives of about 2 million families, the green deal has the potential to touch more than 14 million homes around the country. Now, there can be no one-size-fits-all model. Our green deal legislation must promote the emergence of a new and dynamic market, working for the incredibly diverse mix of homes in the UK. There must be greater consumer choice, but with a recognition of the need for fairness and, in particular, of the urgent and pressing challenges of fuel poverty.
	The green deal will, we believe, unlock billions in new private capital to support energy efficiency, but that will not work effectively without the engagement and support of local communities. Local communities have a key role in driving this ambitious change. We have seen that in Kirklees, where community engagement has been vital for a universal take-up.

Caroline Lucas: The Kirklees example is an excellent one, and Green councillors have been instrumental in that. They were rolling out free insulation-that was the difference; it was free. Where does the hon. Gentleman think that the money will come from for the Government to be able to roll out such a scheme? Does he agree that we ought to be considering mechanisms such as levying a windfall tax on the energy companies, given that they will be getting windfall profits from their involvement in the emissions trading scheme-at least until 2013? Should we not be using money like that to enable such a scheme to be rolled out to everybody rather than depending on people in poor households having to take out what looks like a loan?

Gregory Barker: First, I welcome the hon. Lady to the debate. I am sure that she will be a key-and welcome-feature of such debates for the rest of the Parliament. Of course, CERT is already a levy on the energy companies and we have a clear idea of where the money is coming from. She mentions that in Kirklees the scheme is free, and that is an important point. We simply cannot afford to give free insulation to the whole country, even though it worked extremely well in Kirklees. However, through legislation and opening up new markets with new regulation, we can ensure that there is no cost up front to every single householder. Unlike other pay-as-you-save schemes that were trialled by the former Government, there will be no reference to the credit score of the household. It will not be a personal loan, a green mortgage or a charge on the property.
	What will happen is that the right interventions for that particular property will be delivered and the costs of those interventions will be rolled up in their entirety and repaid through the energy bill for that property over 25 years. If that owner moves away, the cost will simply transfer to the energy bill of the next occupant. If the occupant changes energy company, the cost will simply transfer to the new energy company. We will make sure, through legislation, that it is impossible for a new energy provider to come in and provide energy without taking on the costs associated with the green deal finance. There is a real golden rule.

Mark Tami: Will the Minister give way?

Gregory Barker: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to continue. I am risking scrambling my speech by jumping ahead, but this is a really important point.

Mark Tami: Will the Minister give way on that point?

Gregory Barker: I will give way.
	We cannot guarantee that this will be the case in all instances, because behaviour change is also relevant, but the guiding principle is that the savings in every household that receives such interventions on the pay-as-you-save model must always be greater than the financing costs. The householder, be they in rented or private accommodation, should see not only an increase in the insulation in their home, a reduction in their carbon emissions and an increase in warmth and quality of life for them and their family, but-and this is an important point-a reduction in their total energy bill. That needs to be put clearly and fairly on the bill. We must scotch the idea that the green deal is a loan, a mortgage or a charge, because it is not, and it is really important, in order to get consumer confidence, that we communicate that message.

Mark Tami: rose-

Gregory Barker: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman before he bursts.

Mark Tami: I thank the Minister for giving way. I hear what he says, but is not the danger, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has said, that this will be seen as a loan? Will the most vulnerable people, in particular, who find themselves indebted from a whole range of loans, not see it at as one more loan and choose not to take it?

Gregory Barker: No; I hope that by the time we have finished explaining it properly and getting over this new paradigm, it will not be seen as a loan because it is not a loan. I hope that the hon. Gentleman-and, indeed, all Members-will join me in explaining that to our constituents. This is a really fundamental point, because he is absolutely right that if people perceive it as a loan, which it is not, there will be a reluctance to take it up, particularly in the current environment. There is another element. We accept that for the poorest in society, who cannot make the savings because they do not have the cash to heat their homes in the first place, there will be a need for direct subsidy or intervention. It is on those people and the hard-to-treat homes that we want to focus the ongoing obligation on the energy suppliers.

Barry Gardiner: The final point that the Minister made is particularly important, but let me go back to the main point about the up-front funding costs of installing the energy-efficiency measures. Will he confirm that although those costs will be met through the energy companies, the Government will none the less have to guarantee those costs? Will he confirm that the cost of that guarantee to the public finances could be in the region of £162 billion if every family in the country took up the Prime Minister's offer of the £6,500 limit?

Gregory Barker: I am happy to reassure the hon. Gentleman that no such guarantee is involved or required. I have had extensive meetings not only with the chief executives of energy companies, but with very senior members of the banking community, active participants in the capital markets and retailers such as Marks and Spencer, B&Q, which has been extremely supportive, and others, including installers. Across the industry-in financing, instalment and retail-there is universal acceptance of this model and there will be innovation in the capital markets. Some companies will choose to take the charge on to their balance sheets, but others will choose to participate in partnership with a financing company. I think there will be a real appetite among UK institutions-this is the game-changing element-to purchase what will in effect be a form of bond with a 25-year life. I think they will be securitised together and parcelled up, and will then make attractive investments for UK pension funds, which currently suffer from a relatively limited choice of secure, long-term investments from which to fund their annuities. I can guarantee for the hon. Gentleman that, just as the green deal is not a personal loan, mortgage or charge, nor will it sit on the Government balance sheet or require a Government guarantee.

Alan Whitehead: To make sure that the customer makes a net profit out of green deal investment, the Minister will presumably have to categorise what will be admissible for green deal insulations. If he categorises any form of microgeneration as admissible, as increasingly it is under Warm Front, he will have to make those calculations in the green deal programme in respect of any incentives that might be given for the use of that heat, in particular for insulation such as solar-thermal. Has he therefore excluded microgeneration from the green deal programme? If so, does that mean that the net amount per household that he would imagine being used with the green deal is much lower than the £6,500 suggested prior to the election?

Gregory Barker: It has never been the intention for the green deal to encompass, in its purest form, microgeneration, for which there is the separate support mechanism of feed-in tariffs. We will look closely at those tariffs to ensure that they are appropriate. We want to drive a far greater sense of ambition around microgeneration than was anticipated in the Energy Act 2010, which was passed in the previous Parliament. We are keen and ambitious for microgeneration, but I do not want it to be confused with the green deal, which is about energy efficiency, so it will not be included in that. However, we hope that providers that insulate homes under the financing of the green deal will, as I have outlined, take that opportunity to offer packages for appropriate microgeneration that also might not require any up-front payment because they are supported by a feed-in tariff.
	It is important to stress the priority of energy efficiency over microgeneration, because there is no real point in adding microgeneration systems to energy-inefficient homes, but there is a great deal of sense in adding them at the same time as increasing energy efficiency. Of course, that would also require a smart meter. I hope that this package of measures will be available under the green deal umbrella, but the green deal financing we have been discussing and the £6,500 are for energy-efficiency measures. There is nothing magic about the £6,500 figure, but we had to come up with a figure and there has to be a cut-off point. We reached the figure with the help of BRE, but we might consider increasing it when proposed legislation comes before the House if that proves sensible. However, £6,500 is what we are committed to now. We hope that the game-changing nature of the new deal, the involvement of new players and the creation of new markets and financing tools will create a host of opportunities as well as driving real behaviour change.

Angus MacNeil: I am listening quite closely to what the Minister says about insulation, carbon footprints and new financing. Is he saying that when it comes to the householder paying, they will not be facing any higher than average bills in any particular year than they would have faced had they not entered the green deal? It is quite important that people fully understand. Is the Minister saying that bills should go down and that householders should not experience any greater costs than they had prior to entering the green deal?

Gregory Barker: That is what I am saying, with the caveat that there are two big variables, the first of which is behaviour change. If someone decides, in their newly insulated home, to turn up the dial and hoover in the nude, that will affect the energy bill. Likewise, if there is a spike in oil prices or a surge in gas or electricity prices, that will affect bills. On an equalised basis, assuming there is no major behaviour change, the assumption in the model we are working on will be that the financing costs will always be less than the overall costs of installation.
	Our ambition goes way beyond just household energy efficiency. Households, businesses, industry and the public sector all need to pull together to achieve the change that we need. For businesses, energy efficiency can make sense provided that they are not constrained by unnecessary bureaucracy. The green deal will apply to businesses too, and especially to small and medium-sized enterprises. It has the potential to help many companies improve not only their green credentials but their bank balances and their overall competitiveness.
	I want our reforms to take energy efficiency away from the corporate social responsibility managers and plant it firmly on the desk of Britain's finance controllers. Pioneers in this area are already demonstrating that energy efficiency makes real sense for business. To pick just one example, Marks and Spencer made a saving of £50 million last year alone through energy-efficiency measures. It is just one of thousands of progressive British businesses that realise that energy efficiency has a direct impact on profitability.
	Marks and Spencer launched Plan A in January 2007, in which it set out 100 commitments to achieve in five years and the aim of improving fuel efficiency by more than 20%. Critical to Plan A has been genuine and consistent leadership from the very top of the organisation. Providing leadership from Government Departments is a responsibility that we cannot shirk, and that is why the new Prime Minister has committed the coalition to cutting emissions from central Government Departments by 10% in just 12 months. I am pleased to inform the House that work is well under way, but the 10% cut in Whitehall is just the starting point. We are engaged in a major, long-term drive to reduce emissions and save energy costs right across the wider public sector, which alone accounts for 3% of total UK carbon emissions.
	The public can watch our progress: all Government Departments are now committed to publishing their energy use online and in real time. Seventeen Government Departments will publish energy consumption data for their headquarters buildings by the end of July, following the first meeting of the new cross-departmental energy committee. However, I am pleased to say that the Department of Energy and Climate Change, the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice have already made their energy-use information available online and in real time. We have also asked the private sector to join Ministers in this cross-cutting group, so that we can hold Government Departments to account and ensure that we learn the very best practice from business. This Government are determined to get our house in shape in short order, and we are already delivering clearer leadership, greater transparency and real change.

Caroline Lucas: I am grateful to the Minister for his support of the 10:10 campaign, which aims for 10% cuts in 2010. However, he will know that the campaign will not finish at the end of 2010 and that, if we are serious about tackling climate change, we need 10% cuts year on year thereafter. Can he make any statement now about what will happen at the end of 2010?

Gregory Barker: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. The important thing about our 10% cut is that it is a commitment made by the Prime Minister and it is being driven from the very top in government. She is absolutely right that 10% in one year is simply not enough, but it will be a terrific shock to the system in Whitehall and a great start. In the committee of which I am a member, and which is chaired by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, I have been very clear that it is only a starting point.
	Achieving such reductions will get progressively more difficult, because behaviour change and the simple interventions that can be made at first cannot be repeated once they have been done. The task will require investment, but we are confident that most of that investment will pay for itself. The new models of investment-involving the energy services companies and the private sector, as well as enlightened and progressive facilities management contracts-mean that the cost of the infrastructure changes that will be needed will not necessarily fall on the public purse.
	We are pushing very hard to draw in expertise from the private sector, and I am glad to say that that is largely being provided on a pro bono basis. We want to ensure that the Government, instead of being a national embarrassment, become a showcase for the best in British energy conservation. It is not at all impossible that, if we attach renewable energy sources to our estate, the public sector could one day become a net exporter of energy. Those are lofty ambitions and strategies but we will not superimpose arbitrary targets on them. There have been too many targets cluttering the landscape in the past. We know what we have to do, and the best thing that we can do is to get on and do it.
	The potential benefits of energy efficiency are absolutely clear. This coalition Government are committed to making the UK a leader in energy efficiency, and to doing so with a completely new level of ambition and at a scale never before attempted. We are radically improving and refocusing existing policy measures, and we plan to bring forward completely new measures to deliver a real step change in ambition and delivery across both households and the business sector.
	However, I would say this to the Opposition: there is much that unites us on this whole agenda, and we are building on the work begun by the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) and her Front-Bench colleague, the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry). The Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives supported the Climate Change Act 2008 in a constructive spirit, and I hope that we can forge a new consensus across the new House of Commons on energy efficiency and tackling fuel poverty. We should send a strong and united message to business and consumers alike that the time for action is now, and that we are united in laying out a new and clear framework for the long term.
	I am glad to report that the new coalition has hit the ground running. We have a strong and ambitious green agenda, with energy efficiency at its very heart. The green deal will be at the centre of this Session's flagship Energy Bill, along with other measures to drive low-carbon transformation and build energy security. It is clear from the Chancellor's Budget, which committed to introducing a floor price for carbon, and yesterday's publication of the work of the green investment bank commission, that we are making real progress already. There is a great deal more to do, and time for action is short, but I know that, by focusing on energy efficiency at the very outset, we are starting in the right place.

Joan Ruddock: I begin by welcoming the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), to his new position. I am sure that he will find it as stimulating and rewarding as I did.
	This debate is entitled "Progress and Prospects in Energy Efficiency", and I am delighted to have the opportunity to record the very considerable progress made by the Labour Government over the past 13 years. Today, the Minister of State announced his plans for the carbon emissions reductions target scheme, but I have to remind the House that I announced in 2009 that there would be an extension of the scheme to 2012. I also announced that the new scheme would have an insulation minimum, and that there would be a super-priority group that would receive benefits from the scheme. I also announced that there would be an end to fluorescent bulbs-so I congratulate the Minister on following through on all the things that I said would happen a year ago.
	I am glad that the Minister intends to lay the statutory instrument as soon as possible. It was, of course, the advent of a general election that made it impossible for the previous Government to proceed with that. Overall, however, he is of course fortunate to have such a good framework on which to lay his future plans, and I am grateful to him for the acknowledgment that he just gave. Labour's Climate Change Act 2008 led the world in establishing the first national legal limits on greenhouse gas emissions, and I share the Minister's pleasure at the fact that it finally achieved an all-party consensus.
	Energy efficiency is central to addressing both climate change and energy security. That is why, in September 2008, we announced the home energy saving programme, a package worth £1 billion. We did so, of course, for exactly the reasons that the hon. Gentleman has outlined. There is no disputing the failure to build well-insulated homes in this country, but at no time was the situation worse than under the previous Conservative Government, when Mrs Thatcher's ban on council house building drove people who could not afford to buy into decrepit private sector housing with the lowest possible insulation standards. I regret to say that history is about to repeat itself, with housing benefit changes certain to drive already poor standards down further. Will the Minister regulate private landlords, as we planned to do, to ensure that privately rented accommodation is properly insulated?
	In 1999, we inherited a £19 billion backlog of repairs to public housing. No such legacy exists today. Our decent homes standard has resulted in 95% of England's social housing stock reaching decent homes standard, with considerable improvements in energy efficiency. As a result, social housing today is more energy-efficient than housing in general.
	Furthermore, Budget 2009 announced £100 million of funding for local authorities to deliver new energy-efficient homes, and "Building Britain's Future" announced up to £250 million for direct development by councils of around 3,000 new energy-efficient homes. Will the Minister tell us whether those programmes will go ahead? Or will the draconian cuts in local authority budgets, announced by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, put an end to all the progress made on energy efficiency in the social housing sector? What will happen to local area agreements, under which 97% of local authorities had opted for at least one of our three climate change indicators? What is happening to the £25 million fund to help local authorities support community heating infrastructure? When will the Minister make an announcement on that topic?
	We have been told that the Minister for Housing
	"is moving quickly to toughen building standards."
	Can the Minister of State tell us how far the plans to tighten those standards will go, and how fast that will happen? What discussions has he had with the construction industry? I remind him that the Labour Government consistently raised building standards. We introduced the code for sustainable homes; a target of a 25% reduction in carbon emissions this year, relative to the 2006 part L building regulations; the target for a 44% reduction in 2013, leading to a zero-carbon standard for new homes in 2016; and a target for zero-carbon non-domestic building by 2019. Does he really think that the Housing Minister can better that?
	The Minister of State's main argument was that reducing energy use is a much greater problem in existing homes than in new homes. That is absolutely obvious. That is why Labour, in government, placed an obligation on energy companies to deliver energy efficiency measures through CERT, including 100% subsidies for the poorest pensioners and low-income families.
	When answering an intervention, the Minister said that we could not afford free insulation. He-or his colleague the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry)-may like to clarify that in the winding-up speech, because of course we have been providing free insulation to millions of people through the CERT programme.

Gregory Barker: It is not that we cannot afford free insulation; I have made it very clear that for vulnerable groups and hard-to-treat homes, there will continue to be a need for free insulation. What we cannot afford is to insulate the homes of the entire population for free. I do not think that it was ever anticipated that CERT would be able to do that job. There is a multibillion-pound black hole in the plans that we were left with by the Labour Government. We need to bring in private capital to fill that gap.

Joan Ruddock: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely wrong. Of course the schemes were never intended to provide insulation for every home in the country; we were talking of millions and millions of homes. The fact is that we prioritised getting insulation for the most vulnerable and the poorest, but we also had additional programmes, none of which he has said that he will match today.

Gregory Barker: The fact is that in the consultation that the right hon. Lady oversaw, it was assumed that 10% of the poorest would be in a super-priority group. We have extended that to 15%, so we have increased by 50% the amount of effectively free insulation that will go to the homes of the most vulnerable. We have not minimised the commitment; we have built and expanded it, so that under our proposals, more money will go to the most vulnerable.

Joan Ruddock: The hon. Gentleman is talking about one small element of one of the programmes. We had a consultation on the subject, and it was perfectly reasonable to move to 15%. The 10% was the starting point. I remind him that the figure in the CERT scheme is 40% anyway; it was uplift on that. There are many other programmes, and I will come on to what is planned in them when I ask the other questions that I think the Government need to be asked, because it would in no way solve the problems if we were left only with CERT.
	It is utterly untrue to say that there was a huge black hole. As I shall illustrate, we had plans and programmes set in place to move to a stage beyond 2012. The Minister has not said anything today that will move the programmes of additional work beyond what is already in the pipeline. We insulated 5 million homes between 2002 and 2008. We aimed for another 6 million to be tackled in the 2008 to 2011 programme, which was on target when we left government. We aim to have every cavity and loft, where practicable, insulated by 2015. The Minister has not said today that he will achieve that, but unless he says otherwise, we have to assume that he will continue those programmes.
	We developed and extended the obligation, launching a £350-million community energy-saving programme that works on a street-by-street basis in the areas of the poorest decile of people in the country. That is a well-targeted programme that works in a different way, but the Minister has not said anything about it today, so perhaps, in response to my points, he will clarify the issue of the future of CESP.

Gregory Barker: The problem with the programmes that the right hon. Lady has specified, which are all good in themselves, is that they are not up to the scale of the challenge. CESP is a good programme, but it deals with tens of thousands of households. We have to reach, within the time scale that she mentioned, 14 million. At that rate of progress, we would still be lagging by 2030. We are not abandoning her programmes but bringing in an entirely new level of ambition. We are consolidating and building on those programmes, and bringing in more resources and ingenuity, as well as demand from the private sector, so it is a plus-plus agenda from this new coalition.

Joan Ruddock: Again, I have to tell the Minister that I think he is rather mistaken. The fact is that, whatever his green deal-I shall discuss that in more detail in a moment-it depends entirely on who opts in. He may get nobody to do so. He is talking about a grandiose scheme covering millions of people, but it depends entirely on individual households deciding to opt into the scheme. The benefit of CESP, on which we expected to build further, was that it involved the whole community, local government, energy companies and partnerships in a way that allowed for an holistic approach. That is clearly what his scheme will fail to do.
	Let me make a little more progress. We also introduced the CRC energy efficiency scheme-again, there has been no mention of that today-which is an extremely important energy efficiency measure. It is a new mandatory emissions trading scheme to improve energy efficiency in the large public and private sector organisations that were not otherwise covered by the climate change levy, or indeed the emissions trading scheme, which is, of course, European-based. Consequently supermarkets, banks, universities, hospitals and other organisations were all brought into an energy efficiency framework. The scheme is intended to target emissions from the energy use of those organisations, which represent no less than 10% of all UK emissions. What is the future of the CRC energy efficiency scheme? Again, the Minister has been silent on the issue. Will he guarantee that this important scheme will continue?
	Let us not forget the boiler scrappage scheme, which my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright) mentioned. It was a great success. About 125,000 heating systems have been or are due to be upgraded under the scheme. It helped sustain work for installers and UK-based boiler manufacturers throughout the economic recovery, and it saved carbon. Replacing 125,000 G-rated boilers should save about 140,000 tonnes of CO2 every year-the equivalent of taking about 45,000 cars off the road.
	I have reminded the House of the big changes that Labour was making in energy efficiency and in putting the country on track to meet our climate change targets of a 34% reduction in greenhouse gases by 2020 and at least 80% by 2050.

Caroline Lucas: According to the Committee on Climate Change, the emission reductions achieved in the past year have been almost entirely a result of the recession, not a result of Government action. To hear the right hon. Lady talking as though the previous Government did wonderful things to achieve climate change targets beggars belief.

Joan Ruddock: I am so sorry. I was going to-I do-welcome the hon. Lady to the House, but her intervention is not welcome. We more than doubled-hon. Members know better than to laugh at this-our Kyoto commitment. At the last count, when I was in my place, we had seen a 21% reduction in CO2 emissions over 1990 levels, and we were very much on target to achieve what we had set out. We introduced groundbreaking legislation that constrained us, with carbon budgets year on year-three budgets already in place and programmes that could enable us to meet those budgets.

Martin Horwood: In the same vein as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), I must point out that the achievement of the Kyoto targets was due to other factors-in that case, the dash for gas, which transformed the pattern of greenhouse gas emissions in this country. That and the recession achieved far more than the previous Government.

Joan Ruddock: Again, I am sorry to say that the hon. Gentleman knows better than that. Nobody disputes the fact that the dash for gas was a factor, and more recently the recession has, indeed, been a factor, but the independent Committee on Climate Change has acknowledged the difference that Government programmes over that period made. Lord Turner, the chair of the Committee on Climate Change, said very recently that the last Government
	"set out a whole series of policies, and as long as we drive those through we will make a difference."
	 [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) mutters from a sedentary position, "That's about the future." Climate change and what we need to address is indeed the future. I pointed out our considerable achievements in the past. No other Government had made the leap forward that we made, and as I said at the outset of the debate, we left a very strong framework from which any Government could proceed to reduce carbon in the UK.

Barry Gardiner: Will my right hon. Friend remind the House that notwithstanding the dash for gas, the achievements during that period were against a background of a 25% growth in GDP? That must be taken into account. We would all accept that however good the achievements of the previous Government, we must do better in future to make sure that we meet the stringent targets set by the Government for 2020, and let us hope that we can exceed them.

Joan Ruddock: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the points that he makes, particularly the telling one about the level of economic growth that occurred during a time when carbon was, for the first time, being constrained.

Alan Whitehead: In order to dispel some of the wild hyperbole on the matter, I hope it will be helpful to observe that the Committee on Climate Change said today that 1 megatonne of CO2 emissions out of a total of 4 megatonnes of CO2 emissions could be directly attributable to Government measures on energy efficiency and associated activities in the past year.

Joan Ruddock: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who always manages to read more comprehensively than I do. I meant to look at the detail before I came to the Dispatch Box, but we were rather busy, so I am grateful that he was able to make that point and that the House has heard it.
	I was referring to the fact that we had made changes and were putting the country on track to meet our climate change targets, but we were never complacent. That is why, one year ago, we launched our great British refurb programme, and in July last year published the UK low carbon transition plan. Our proposals signalled a step change in the level of ambition for the household sector over the next decade-precisely the game-changer of which the Minister spoke.
	The House should not just take my word for it. Paul King, the chief executive of the UK Green Building Council, said:
	"This is a bold and welcome move. The biggest barrier to low carbon refurbishment-the upfront cost-is set to fall. Pay As You Save is a radical scheme, which could trigger a revolution in household refurbishment-creating at least 100,000 new jobs, saving money and conserving energy."
	That was the opinion of our transition plan.
	Everything that the Minister outlined today could be found in Labour's transition plan. We said that we would introduce clean energy cashbacks-the feed-in tariffs-to enable households to profit from generating their own electricity. We did. We said that we would legislate for a mandated price support for poorer people and raise the level of Warm Front grants, and we did. We said that we would pilot "pay as you save" ways to help people green their homes, and we did.
	The Minister has made the Tories' green deal proposals the centrepiece of his departmental policies, but for us it was part of a much more comprehensive strategy. None the less, we were very clear that we needed to engage the public directly in energy efficiency. That is why we began to test the concept of "pay as you save"-what the Government now call the green deal. We established five pilots. The partners in those pilots included 500 households, a housing association, an energy company-British Gas, Birmingham, Sutton and Stroud councils and the Severn Wye Energy Agency, the whole programme being overseen by the Energy Saving Trust.
	Can the Minister report on the progress of the pilots? Will they run their course? Does he plan to take any account of them? Is it part of the learning that the Government plan to do, or do they intend to leap in, having cooked up some programme with somebody?

Gregory Barker: Of course the Government will look at all such evidence, where it is helpful, and learn what we can. I am puzzled-I hope it is not just "not invented here" syndrome-that the right hon. Lady does not understand what I tried to explain at length. Our green deal will require primary legislation because there is a fundamental difference between her scheme, which ultimately relied on credit scoring, personal debt, a green mortgage or a charge on the property. None of those things applies to the new green deal. It will not be personal debt. It will not be a charge, a loan or a mortgage. It will be secured on the property, not on the people who live in the property. It may sound technical, but that is a fundamental difference. It requires primary legislation and it is not the same as the small test pilots which, useful as they may be, the right hon. Lady was trailing.

Joan Ruddock: There is no dispute between us on that matter, and I have not suggested that there is. I asked the Minister if he would take any credit-any benefit, rather- [ Interruption. ] He takes credit for plenty of things that he has not started himself. Will he take any benefit from this in terms of finding out what motivates people and how interested they are? It will be completely central to his plans that people are motivated and can be persuaded. These things require people to have many people in their houses doing many things. It is not easy to motivate people to undergo a great deal of change and upheaval. Such pilots show how acceptable they are, how interested people are and how best to make things work.

Gregory Barker: The right hon. Lady is absolutely right: finance is only part of the issue, as we found in Kirklees. Two things are vital. Community involvement is very important, but the other exciting thing about the green deal is that it is not just reliant on the big six energy companies, which have mixed reputations, but brings in some of our most trusted high street retailers and brands, such as Marks and Spencer and Tesco, which have strong degrees of consumer trust, and I hope that new companies, not yet formed, will also come in. It is exciting that there will be new participants, on a far greater scale than was ever imagined under the previous Government.

Dawn Primarolo: Order. Please may we have brief interventions as many Members wish to speak? I appreciate that the Minister is responding promptly, which I am sure the House is grateful for, but brief interventions would help enormously.

Joan Ruddock: When I was speaking about the partners, I may have left out B&Q, which is also participating in the pilots. We certainly had a similar scope of possibilities. We knew and said clearly that primary legislation would be required. We said clearly that we would need to legislate to link the finance to the property, not to the individual, and that is what we were working through. We also believed that in order to motivate people it would be necessary to present a financial package which meant that when they paid their energy bills, they were paying back the upfront costs. So there were no upfront costs, and that is why we called it pay as you save. To that extent, the kernel of this is something that we prepared for and intended. I am delighted that the Minister is going ahead with it. There is no question about that. We will certainly support him as the plans come forward and examine them in great detail. We clearly believe that this is a way forward and we want it to work.
	None the less, there are questions that the Minister must answer. In opposition, the Prime Minister spoke of an entitlement. How will an entitlement be created? How many households does the Minister expect to undertake what the Labour Government called an eco-makeover by 2020? Our best-informed target was 7 million. What is his target for 2020? I would be grateful if the Minister could make that clear when he winds up, bearing in mind that people have to opt in. This is not something that they are being given without their own participation. It is unclear whether it is £6,500 or up to £6,500. Ministers know that a single-glazed, solid-walled house would cost at least £10,000 and could be much more. Is there an upper limit to the scheme that can be accommodated in the payback plans, and how many years would it take to pay back if that kind of money is being provided?
	That brings me to fuel poverty. The Minister talked a lot about helping vulnerable people, but there was little mention of any concrete action to tackle fuel poverty. Warm Front, the Labour Government's scheme for the fuel-poor, helped more than 2 million vulnerable households across England from June 2000, including 500,000 households in the last two years alone. It provides grants of up to £3,500, or up to £6,000 for those off the gas grid. Do the Government intend to scrap grant payments for central heating and insulation? I hope the Minister will be able to give us a precise answer to that question today. What evidence does he have that people in poorer households will be able to get help with insulation and improved heating under his green deal?
	National Energy Action is sceptical. It has seen the details of the Government's scheme and it says:
	"The overwhelming majority of fuel-poor households currently underheat their homes and the beneficial effects of energy efficiency improvements would generally be in the form of a warmer dwelling rather than in financial savings. NEA is deeply concerned about how these people would be expected to service loan repayments, let alone gain access to loans at commercial interest rates given their often precarious financial circumstances."
	The Minister will say, "But they are not loans." But somebody has to put the money up front, albeit that it is the energy companies, and somebody has to pay back, so we must know what will happen to the most vulnerable people. How many pensioners and poor families does he think will be able to take out the green deal?
	We have discussed energy efficiency in the context of reducing the energy used by better insulation. But climate change dictates that we not only reduce our use, but decarbonise what we do use. That is a much more comprehensive strategy.

Christopher Pincher: The right hon. Lady speaks about fuel poverty, which is terrible for many people. But despite what the Labour Government did in terms of CERTs, CESPs and Warm Front, all of which are laudable, can she explain why fuel poverty increased?

Joan Ruddock: It was because there were unprecedented fuel prices. No Government could have instituted a programme that could have erased the effect of the dramatic global increase in oil prices.
	Let me continue with my case that we need a more comprehensive strategy-a point that was made by a number of my hon. Friends, intervening on points of interest at the beginning of the Minister's speech. Heating accounts for three quarters of home energy use. No matter how much we improve our insulation or reduce consumption by our appliances, we will inevitably still use considerable amounts of energy. At present, we depend on fossil fuels-natural gas, liquid gas and oil. That cannot continue indefinitely, which is why we planned to introduce a renewable heat incentive from next year. That would guarantee payments for those who install technologies, such as ground source heat pumps, air source heat pumps and biomass boilers.
	Under our proposed tariffs, the installation of a ground source heat pump in an average semi-detached house with adequate insulation would be rewarded with £1,000 a year, and lead to savings of £200 a year if used instead of heating oil. The heat incentive would help thousands of consumers who are off the gas network to lower their fuel bills and gain a cash reward for greening their heating supply.
	In government, we were pleased to achieve a wide consensus for our Climate Change Act 2008 and Energy Act 2008. We were gratified by the enthusiasm with which our 10-year transition plan for low carbon was received, particularly by the CBI and the TUC.
	Today, I can promise our broad support for coalition Government plans that reflect and continue on the path that we have set, and I can promise that we will scrutinise fairly the details of any legislation. But the big question remains: will they will the means? Can they resolve their differences, or will Tory ideological cuts totally undermine the critical progress that needs to be made- [ Interruption. ] The Minister laughs, but he said not a word about public sector housing, or private sector housing where landlords are completely and utterly unwilling to assist with energy conservation. There is so much that needs to be addressed by proper public policy, but ideological cuts cut across that.
	Government is about leadership, setting priorities and, yes, making hard choices, but it is also about holding one's nerve and seeing things through. The coalition had a choice. It could have balanced deficit reduction with investment in the future, investment in manufacturing, such as Sheffield Forgemasters, and investment in decarbonising the electricity supply. However, it clearly lacks the vision to do so.
	The Minister promised to make his Government the greenest ever. All I can say is that he has made a shaky start. We will judge him on his strategy to deliver a low-carbon future that tackles climate change, on his record of creating green jobs and on whether the transition to low carbon is made fairly.

Martin Horwood: I thank the Minister for his statement. He was absolutely right to highlight our collective failure to address energy efficiency adequately, but he seems so keen to do something about it that I could almost mistake him for a Lib Dem- [ Interruption. ] Not quite, perhaps. On the green deal, the ministerial team has imaginatively built on proposals. Obviously, I shall claim that the Lib Dems were the very first to produce such a scheme, but the Conservatives did, too, and towards the end the Labour Government were- [ Interruption. ] We will check whether the Green party was ahead of the Lib Dems.

Caroline Lucas: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Martin Horwood: Not on that one; I am sorry.
	All the parties, and even the Labour Government in the end, were working on variations on that scheme, but the one that the ministerial team has come up with is truly imaginative, and its unique financing raises the ambition for energy efficiency in this country in a way that, if successful, will represent a step change in energy efficiency. As the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) pointed out, it is not guaranteed to be successful, and we do not know exactly how many people will take it up. The point, however, is to wish it well and for all Members to promote it, support private companies, communicate the scheme's success and hope that it achieves the step change that we are looking for. I congratulate the ministerial team on coming up with that proposal.

Anne Main: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way on that point, because under the previous Government communication problems were often among the reasons why some very good schemes did not take off. I therefore wish this scheme well. Does he agree that this Government's big effort to introduce a scheme instantly is a positive move, and that all parts of the House will welcome improved communication?

Martin Horwood: I am sure the hon. Lady is right to emphasise the importance of communication. I was going to go on to pay tribute to the outgoing Administration, and in particular to the right hon. Members for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) and for Lewisham, Deptford, who towards the end of the Labour Government brought some urgency to the issue and improved things. However, it is true that at times they were tempted to take credit for things that were the result of larger factors, and that, given the number of consultations and pilots in which they indulged, they did not get round to implementing some of the schemes that they had contemplated. It now falls to the coalition to increase the pace of change, and the early signs are good.
	The need is urgent. If we are to achieve throughout Europe a target of 30% cuts in greenhouse gas emissions by 2020, which I believe should be the target for the whole European Union, we will have to make those radical step changes in policy. Indeed, we need to do so if we are to have any chance of reducing the concentration of atmospheric CO2 to 450 ppm or lower, which I believe is absolutely necessary. If we do not do that, the chance of global warming increasing by more than two degrees above pre-industrial levels rises, threatening food production, conflict and, ultimately, the economies on which we depend to finance public sector and Government programmes.
	In that respect, energy efficiency is no panacea. Not long ago, I visited a company near my constituency called Messier-Dowty, which provides world-class aircraft parts, particularly undercarriage. I remember having a conversation with its staff, in which they extolled the virtues of those parts and the aircraft industry's efforts to make aircraft more efficient and lighter, and use less energy as they flew. However, I pointed out that eventually the industry would have to adjust to a world in which people learned to fly less and used alternative means of travel and communications. The same analogy is true for the whole economy. Energy efficiency is the first and most cost-effective area to address, but it is no substitute for the wholesale decarbonisation of our economy, which we also need to work on.
	I shall focus on three areas of energy efficiency: first, energy efficiency in buildings, especially the skills needed to deliver it; secondly, smart metering; and finally, energy markets and pricing. In the first area, it is right that we concentrate on buildings. Throughout Europe, apparently 90% of our time is spent indoors and 30% of our energy consumption is devoted to heating and lighting buildings, so the green deal is an important step in trying to address that scale of energy use. However, there are traps ahead, and I have spoken to training suppliers in the further education sector and those hoping to run apprenticeships in architecture and building trades in and around my constituency. They point out a severe lack of skills in those new building technologies, particularly the skills needed not just in isolated instances, such as the installation of renewable technologies or the provision of insulation, but in new building materials, in the different approach that we need to take in the building trades and in architecture, and in constructing and retrofitting buildings. Such skills must be fundamental to training in those sectors.

Thomas Docherty: I am slightly confused. Given that the hon. Gentleman supports deep and savage cuts to the training budgets of our colleges, how does he expect them to produce those vast numbers of desperately needed skilled workers in order to bring about that step change that we all want?

Martin Horwood: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. One answer is clearly the green deal, which will incentivise private companies to invest in such training themselves. Apprenticeships might be part of the solution, too. However, when I asked Gloucester college, a forward-looking and innovative FE college based partly in my constituency and partly in Gloucester, what was the single biggest step that could be taken, the answer was not to fund extra courses. It suggested allowing FE colleges that provide such training to accredit their own courses, rather than having to defer constantly to universities. I commend that recommendation to Ministers and their colleagues in other Departments. The college believed that that would enable it to respond much faster to market situations and design courses much more flexibly, and that it was the single most important change that could be made. I hope that provides an answer to the hon. Gentleman.
	On new buildings at least, the other possible pitfall is the rather prescriptive and increasingly complex code for sustainable homes. I welcomed the code when the previous Government introduced it, and generally, as an instrument of policy, it is a welcome development. However, it has been painfully slow at raising energy efficiency levels in new buildings, and it risks becoming so over-prescriptive that it defeats our objectives.
	I know the Secretary of State well, and he is no friend of over-prescription; he prefers the creation of the right market environment, which would avoid the need for such complexity and enable the process to move faster. Instead of having standards of such complex design, perhaps we should reinforce one or two simple measures-for instance, a measure of kilowatt-hours per square metre for every building, old or new. To follow up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main), that would be easy to communicate to the public and easy for estate agents, politicians and everybody else to understand. It might become a powerful measure of energy efficiency, with no need to prescribe such complex details as we find in the current code.
	This morning there was a round-table discussion hosted by  The House M agazine, and one point repeatedly came up. Examples were mentioned of earlier civilisations-even the Romans-that were very good at preserving openness and light in buildings and making them energy-efficient through the communal use of heat; the renewable heat issue has already been mentioned. More traditional wooden buildings within the Arctic circle still seem to require less energy to heat than many buildings in this country. I know from my own experience of villages in India where buildings made basically out of mud were beautifully cool in summer and beautifully warm in winter. They were very energy-efficient, but used materials that would probably not be allowed under current building regulations. Incidentally, I am not suggesting that we should all start living in yurts or anything like that; that would be a bit too Liberal.

Gregory Barker: That did not quite make it into the coalition agreement.

Martin Horwood: Indeed.
	We should be wary that over-complication and over-prescription could risk the defeat of our own objectives, and lead to our prescriptions to the industry for low-carbon homes being too inflexible and therefore too expensive. More flexibility might enable the private sector to deliver some of the objectives more simply and efficiently.
	I shall now talk about smart metering. I was a shadow environment spokesman under the previous Government, and assorted people lobbied me heavily-as they did my opposite numbers, I suspect-about their particular designs of smart meter. I am aware that the field is very competitive. I make no judgment between the different systems, but I am increasingly aware that smart metering covers a multitude of sins. There are tough decisions ahead for the ministerial team about exactly which designs we might favour.
	At the most basic level, we are talking about something that just generates information that can be read out on a display, and might be reflected on a bill. That would be useful, but rather limited. More sophisticated systems influence the timing of devices such as washing machines and dishwashers so that they operate at different times and improve the efficiency of the whole household.
	The most interactive technology feeds real-time information back to the energy companies themselves and could improve the efficiency of the whole network. I would draw a line at the kind of systematic smart metering that enabled people to switch suppliers minute by minute, which I know has been suggested by some hon. Members. The machine itself searches for the best deal and tariff at any particular minute. That would lead to indescribable confusion over billing and might destabilise businesses from week to week. However, we need to look at the various different technologies and be ambitious about what smart metering can deliver.
	On energy markets and pricing, the Minister rightly said that we suffered from a plethora of different energy efficiency programmes under the last Government. Many were well intentioned and individually well designed, but there was a lot of stopping and starting and different, confusing and overlapping requirements. Last Christmas I visited the Cheltenham Royal Mail sorting office and found postal workers falling over heaps of low-energy light bulbs as one energy company in particular had mailed out huge numbers of the things at the last possible moment. I am not surprised that the Minister said that 262 million had been supplied.
	In a way, I suppose that the bulbs were a good thing, but they spectacularly missed the point. While price still rewards energy consumption, it will always be difficult to mobilise the energy companies really to get behind energy efficiency. For the longer term, I commend to the Minister one other Lib Dem policy that did not quite make it into the coalition agreement. It was to take energy bills and set a historic baseline amount for each household, taking into account the number of children and so on, which would be reflected in the historic consumption. Thereafter, the cost to consumers would rise if energy consumption rose, but the energy company would not be allowed to profit from that rise.
	Instead, the surplus would be taken, for example, into a fund administered by the company for energy efficiency or environmental programmes. At a stroke, that would break the link between profit and increased energy use; it would actually cost the energy company money if energy use rose. The company would have a direct financial business case for increasing energy efficiency. That would be hugely simpler than all the complicated schemes in which the companies were set targets and sought various ways-some of them rather untestable and unverifiable-of trying to meet Government objectives. If the Minister adopts that policy, I really will think that he is turning into a Liberal Democrat.
	If the coalition is to deliver on these ambitious targets, and on its ambition to be the greenest Government yet, we will need, in the Minister's words, to change the game and be really ambitious, bold and radical. I fully expect that we will be.

Meg Munn: I welcome the Ministers, the hon. Members for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) and for Wealden (Charles Hendry), to their places. I am delighted that the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle has been appointed; he has long been interested in these issues and I am sure that he will make a great contribution. As he said, much of the debate about the reduction of carbon emissions tends to focus on renewables, which, of course, make an important contribution. However, immediate gains are much more likely to come from energy efficiency, so our having this debate today is a positive sign.
	If I were to tell the Ministers that there is a technology that could reduce domestic fuel usage by 30%, I expect that they would want to hear about it. If I said the same thing but added that the Government were holding the technology back, I hope that they would ask me what we needed to do to bring the technology along. However, I have already written to the hon. Member for Wealden about these points, and his response to date has been somewhat lukewarm. Today I shall try to persuade both Ministers to take the claims seriously and take the action required to help bring that technology to the market quickly.
	I am talking about micro-combined heat and power, which involves small appliances that are efficient and beneficial for the consumer, and will help the UK reach its carbon reduction targets and encourage manufacturing; hon. Members on both sides will realise that we are keen on manufacturing in Sheffield. Importantly, such appliances generate electricity in the home, reducing household energy bills at a stroke. Electricity can also be generated for sale to the national grid, giving an income to householders and reducing reliance on large expensive generating plants.
	I particularly want to highlight one appliance, which is suitable for both the domestic and commercial markets. It is produced by a small Sheffield-based company called Inspirit Energy. The appliance is the size of a washing machine and the highly effective boiler is a 3 kW electrical system capable of working at 92% efficiency. The appliance can supply all the hot water and heating requirements of a home, up to 70% of electricity needs at peak times, and it can generate up to 50% of a user's annual electricity consumption. The development of the appliance is well under way and I hope that it will be ready to go to market in the near future. I shall explain why the Government are holding the technology back.
	As the two Ministers well know, a particular feature of micro-combined heat and power appliances is that they generate electricity at precisely the times when there is significant demand, helping the national grid to cope. The systems would particularly help the elderly and vulnerable, who may be worried about putting on their heating for fear of the cost. They can heat their homes knowing that the cost of doing so is partly or completely covered. If they sell some electricity to the national grid, they could make a small amount of money back. Importantly, such appliances could cut the carbon footprint of a home significantly, perhaps reducing CO2 emissions by up to 70%. These products are intended merely to cover any interim period before the world runs entirely on renewables. However, with development, the units themselves could in time run on renewable fuels such as biomass or solar.
	The Minister talked about the important role of Government in this respect, not necessarily in directly supporting the private sector in the development of these appliances, but in providing the architecture, structure or framework that will allow them to develop. One way of encouraging their further development and future sales is through feed-in tariffs. Around the world, tariff schemes have had a positive effect in cutting the cost of renewable technologies, as well as in creating employment opportunities. Such schemes offer incentives to individuals and companies, by providing clear and effective financial incentives for companies developing appliances for householders and small businesses.
	Earlier this year, DECC produced a paper on feed-in tariffs which stated that the tariff should comprise two components: one for total kilowatt-hours generated, and another for kilowatt-hours exported to the national grid. The technologies covered in the paper included micro-combined heat and power, but only up to an electrical capacity of less than, or equal to, 2 kW. I had already raised this matter in the House, and lobbied the previous Government on it, during the Christmas Adjournment debate in December 2009. I point out to Ministers that having an upper limit of 2 kW would exclude the unit produced by Inspirit Energy-and, no doubt, units that may be produced by other companies. The ability to generate feed-in tariffs has the potential to make the unit very attractive, but not having them could impact on the potential return to the company and thus the attractiveness of its further development and manufacture in the UK.
	We have already, rightly, spent a great deal of time talking about how we enable people in poorer households to access a wide range of technologies and resources that will reduce their carbon emissions. If householders fear that they cannot get a payback on a boiler of this type, they will be unlikely to invest in it. By having such a low threshold of 2 kW, we are damaging the country's prospects in what will surely become an important industry of the future. We must change the rules to allow feed-in tariffs for 3 kW appliances. I agree that anything over 3 kW is more suited to industrial use, but excluding a 3 kW machine means that properties with more than three bedrooms are excluded from the micro-combined heat and power programme.
	Products such as the appliance being developed by Inspirit Energy could not only help to meet the UK's target of reducing energy but drastically reduce the excessive use of fossil fuels. This technology can make a major contribution to saving carbon generation. By focusing on what can be done now to make our homes more energy- efficient, we can go a long way towards changing our fuel usage, emissions and ever-increasing fuel bills.
	When I wrote to the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden, in May, to request a meeting with him, I was advised that the demands on his diary are considerable at present-as I am sure is the case-and that such a meeting could not take place. However, let me say to both Ministers that if they, or anybody here, were to meet the people who are developing this technology, I am sure that they would become as enthusiastic as I am about the product.

Gregory Barker: The hon. Lady knows that I hold her in high regard, but that has increased even more, as I had not previously appreciated what expertise she has in this particular area. May I invite her to come to the Department to join the round table on microgeneration that we will be holding-in July, I believe? If she would care to bring representatives from the company in her constituency, they would be very welcome to participate with other stakeholders from the industry on how we can have a more ambitious microgeneration strategy.

Meg Munn: I thank the Minister for that very generous offer. I am delighted that in securing the opportunity to have such a meeting, I have achieved the aim that I set myself in making this speech. He is very generous in saying that I am an expert, but indeed I am not; that is the last thing I am. I am, however, persuaded by the experts that this technology that can make a real difference. I am delighted to accept his invitation.

Richard Drax: Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, for calling me to make my maiden speech today. I follow distinguished speeches by many hon. Members on both sides of the House, and I do so with some trepidation, a feeling I am sure that they will recall from the time when they had to make their first speeches. It is an immense privilege to make a maiden speech in this great House, where so many extraordinary men and women have gone before. The sheer weight of tradition and history are overwhelming, and a reminder to us all of Parliament's ancient permanence, which is not to be tampered with lightly.
	What a great honour it is to represent the people of South Dorset. The county is my home, and has been my family's home for generations, and I am proud to be elected to speak for it. I follow an almost unbroken line of Conservative South Dorset MPs, with occasional, notable exceptions. The most recent, of course, was my predecessor, Lord Knight of Weymouth-a title that will, no doubt, throw a few. I congratulate him on his ennoblement and on serving the people of South Dorset so diligently for nine years. Ironically, perhaps, fate threw us together before my political aspirations took hold. As a local BBC television reporter, I was, for some years, frequently sent to interview my former opponent. Little did we know then what lay ahead. Suffice it to say that his elevation to the peerage was splendid news to us all, and a relief to me.
	My foray into politics ends a slight drought of Draxes here in the Commons. In an earlier deluge, six ancestors graced this place between 1679 and 1880-all representing the long-lost seat of Wareham. One, John Sawbridge Erle-Drax MP, spoke only once during the entire 32 years of his parliamentary career, and that was to ask the Speaker of the House to open the window. Unsurprisingly, he was known as the "Silent MP". After his death, he arranged for  The Times to be delivered daily to his mausoleum through a specially built-in letterbox; mine is under construction. In view of his Trappist tendencies, for his descendent to be making his maiden speech a mere eight weeks into the parliamentary Session must seem like indecent haste.
	South Dorset is a place of monumental beauty. The people are proud and fiercely independent. Years of history have forged this constituency, not least during the second world war, which saw its beaches, bases and ranges nurture tens of thousands of young men as they prepared to fight for our freedom during those dark days more than 60 years ago.
	Today, the resorts of Weymouth and Swanage are home to a wide range of activities, from light industry and retail, to tourism and fishing. Farmers, the guardians of our countryside, and sadly neglected for so many years, have cared for the lush interior for centuries. Nor should we forget the quarries of Portland, which still offer up the stone for which the island is so famous. The island of Portland is also renowned by sailors for its huge tides, which offer great hope for future energy provision.
	Another island in my constituency is worthy of note, not least because of its red squirrels. I am, of course, talking about Brownsea island, set in the middle of Poole harbour, the second largest natural harbour in the world. The marshy southern reaches of those waters provide a spectacular haven for sailors, birds and wildlife, including the human variety, which occupies one of Europe's largest nudist beaches at nearby Studland. I have yet to arrange one of my surgeries there.
	The entire constituency is dominated by our Jurassic coast, now a world heritage site. Dinosaurs once roamed the constituency-there is proof of it. Judging by comments made by opponents during the election campaign, people might think one was still out there. Maybe that is the case, but a strong Conservative heart beats underneath these scales, tempered for a moment with a dash of liberalism. I shall represent my constituents according to my conscience, without fear or favour.
	On that note, and despite being at the bottom of the food chain at the moment, I sense a shift of mood in the House. The new intake, of which I am one, has brought with it a fresh perspective. While understanding the need for party cohesion, I believe that MPs should have their own minds and, above all, be mindful of those who put us here. That was very much my guide during my four years as a candidate, when I met a vast range of people who enriched my knowledge of the constituency. It was that experience that revealed to me that appearances can often be deceptive.
	What do I mean? South Dorset may be lavishly endowed with natural gifts, but it has traditionally suffered from a lack of investment in its infrastructure. We have lost shops, pubs and bus services, and a shocking 50% of our post offices have closed over the past 10 years. Out of season, the hotels and guest houses fall silent. In Weymouth alone, we have six of the most deprived wards on the national index of deprivation. The fishing industry, quarrying, agriculture and the ports have all taken a knock during the recession, and although unemployment remains below the national average, wages are resolutely low.
	We have two prisons in South Dorset, HMP The Verne and the young offenders institution. I have visited both on several occasions and work closely with the governors and the Prison Officers Association. The POA's plight has been ignored for too long. As in so many other areas, the pendulum has swung too far in one direction. Today, officers feel powerless to do their job effectively as the prisoners appear to have more rights than they do. With 50% remission as the norm, it is difficult to apply meaningful sanctions to prisoners who do not toe the line. It is important to remember, in my humble opinion, that the Prison Service is just that-a service. Without proper support, officers will continue to feel, as they repeatedly describe themselves, a "forgotten army". I warmly welcome the Government's intentions on minimum sentencing and I urge them to look at the matter as soon as possible.
	I also applaud the Government's interest in, and support for, our armed services. In South Dorset we have two major Army camps, Bovington and Lulworth. The courage and sacrifice of the families who live there cannot be overstated. Take, for example, just one of our county regiments, The Rifles. The regiment has now lost 53 riflemen in Afghanistan, and more than 200 have been seriously injured. That is the human cost of war. As a former soldier myself, I hold our servicemen and women in high regard. I am greatly reassured by the coalition Government's actions to ensure that the military covenant is properly respected.
	As to the future, it holds great promise, with the Olympic spotlight well and truly focused on the best sailing waters in the United Kingdom. Already, top athletes are training for competitive events both this year and next in preparation for the 2012 games, all hosted by the Weymouth and Portland National Sailing Academy, the first Olympic venue to be ready and officially opened by the Queen herself. None of that would be possible without the co-operation of Portland port, the former naval dockyard now in private hands. Despite grim predictions at the time, the port now employs more civilians than it did in its heyday as a naval base. There are some exciting projects in the pipeline that promise hundreds more jobs.
	I have entered public life because I could no longer sit on my hands and watch our beloved country lose her pride. There is so much to fight for. However, unlike my ancestor, who did not say a word for 32 years-I will not ask you to open the window, Madam Deputy Speaker-I have every intention of standing up for my constituents who put me here.

Mary Glindon: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to make my maiden speech during this debate. First, I congratulate the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) on an excellent and entertaining speech. Over the past few weeks I have listened to many maiden speeches, and each time I felt a pang of emotion as I listened to other new Members speaking with heartfelt pride about their new role and their determination to work for their constituents. I now speak with heartfelt pride myself. I am proud to stand here as a native of North Tyneside having the great honour of representing my fellow North Tynesiders as the first woman Labour MP for the area since Margaret Bondfield in 1926.
	North Tyneside constituency underwent some boundary changes at the general election, so I find myself paying tribute to both the former MP and two colleagues in the House. The right hon. Stephen Byers represented the constituency for 18 years. Not only an able parliamentarian but an excellent constituency MP, he is held in high regard by the many constituents he helped.
	Two wards from the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) have come back into North Tyneside. I know that my right hon. Friend and Steve Byers worked together on a number of issues, including the Swan Hunter campaign "Life for Swans" and most recently to help with the reinstatement of the Findus factory in Longbenton. I believe that the north-east is indebted to my right hon. Friend for the excellent work that he did in his role as Minister for our region. The evidence of his popularity as a constituency MP is there to see in the busy case load that I have inherited from him.
	Riverside ward, where I spent the first 19 years of my life, has come into North Tyneside from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell). My hon. Friend worked hard as a Minister in the last Government, and his success as an MP was confirmed with his fantastic general election victory, when he increased his majority despite the Tory party spending some of Ashcroft's millions over several years in a vain attempt to unseat him.
	North Tyneside constituency stretches along the River Tyne from North Shields to Wallsend, through Killingworth, Benton and Longbenton to the former mining communities in Seaton Burn, Burradon, Annitsford and Camperdown. The people of North Tyneside have a sense of fairness, and their commitment to their area is demonstrated by the array of community groups that have developed over the years, from youth groups such as the Longbenton Youth Project to more established residents' groups such as the Burradon forum. We are particularly proud of our excellent schools, many of which have been enhanced and developed under Labour's Building Schools for the Future, and we have our own college of further education, TyneMet, which has helped launch the careers of many North Tynesiders, including mine.
	Modern business parks have brought employment into the area, and Tesco is about to create 1,000 jobs at Balliol business park. However, I, like many others in the area, am saddened that we are to lose the Twinings tea factory in North Shields. Despite a good campaign to save it, the company has decided to relocate to Poland, leaving its workers jobless. Everything must now be done to help those workers find suitable alternative work, and I know that the unions have started the process to help them through this difficult time.
	North Tyneside has no shortage of cultural and industrial heritage, with famous sons including Robert Stephenson, Robert Westall, Owen Brannigan and Sting. The world of football has been graced with players like Peter Beardsley, Alan Shearer and Michael Carrick, who all started out at the famous Wallsend boys club. Wallsend is also home to the Roman fort Segedunum, which is a world heritage site and sits alongside the world famous Swan Hunter shipbuilding yard, which sadly closed in 1995. The former Rising Sun pit, where my late father-in-law, an overman, was in the last cage to leave the pit, now forms part of our countryside park.
	On several occasions, I have listened to Members opposite mock when those of us with great mining and shipbuilding traditions tell of the devastating effects of the Tory cuts during the 1980s and 1990s. What they fail to understand is that those cuts were not simply about economic ruin for individuals, but dealt severe cultural blows to close-knit communities. I congratulate the Labour Government on trying to right those wrongs with positive policies during the last 13 years. I know that one of our best hopes to reinvigorate industry in North Tyneside is to invest in the wind turbine industry. Already my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East and my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth have been working with Shepherd Offshore to that end, and I want to work with them to bring this modern, skilful and sustainable industry to our former shipyards.
	I have hopes and aspirations for North Tyneside, but this debate shows that this Government will make the attainment of those aspirations a hard slog. Fuel poverty has been tackled on a large scale in North Tyneside, thanks to support from the previous Labour Government. As a councillor and former energy champion for the constituency, I saw the excellent work done, with the help of Eaga, to develop a strategy to combat fuel poverty with partners from all sectors. The introduction of the warm zone, under our previous elected Labour mayor, not only improved energy efficiency in residents' homes, but-because the scheme included supporting people to access benefits-realised more than £l million in extra benefits, to which people are rightly entitled. I only hope that the Government's green deal proposals will continue to deliver this level of success for those people still in fuel poverty in North Tyneside.
	I cannot finish my maiden speech without reference to my former colleagues working in the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission. As an administrative officer, I worked with the staff in manual payments at Longbenton until April this year. I know how committed these and other public sector workers are to delivering good services. As Members of this House, we are elected public servants and we should do all that we can to protect our colleagues across the public sector from Government cuts.
	My commitment to North Tyneside is total. I will do all that I can to justify the trust that the people of North Tyneside have placed in me, and I will busy myself, in this House and in my constituency, to get the best deal possible for them.

Lorraine Fullbrook: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to make my maiden speech today. I congratulate you on your new role. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) and the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) on their fascinating and excellent maiden speeches.
	It is a great honour to be in this Chamber representing the people of the South Ribble constituency, and I wish to pay tribute to my predecessor, David Borrow. For 13 years, he worked hard for his constituents and he was renowned for his support of many local charities and organisations, particularly those involved in the developing world helping those suffering from HIV and AIDS.
	I feel very proud in being the first woman Member of Parliament for South Ribble, but I follow in the illustrious footsteps of Edith Rigby from Penwortham in my constituency, who was a founding member of the Hutton and Howick women's institute. In 1904, she joined the Women's Social and Political Union, popularly known as the suffragettes. She was arrested and sentenced to a month in prison for taking part in a march to the Houses of Parliament. She went on to serve a total of seven prison sentences, and her activities culminated in her planting a bomb in the Liverpool cotton exchange.
	South Ribble can be divided into four distinctive areas and locations, each with its own beauty and rich history and, under this new Government, a better future ahead. Leyland, of Leyland Motors fame, is the main town of South Ribble and has its past in both the cotton and engineering industries. The Cromwell tank was built in Leyland in 1943 by Leyland Motors, which was a world-beating engineering firm of its time, exporting lorries and buses around the world, including to Cuba. The Leyland cotton mills wove fine cambrics and fancies for many fashion houses of the day, in addition to cotton bandages, woven and bleached in Leyland to supply the military front lines of British campaigns around the globe.
	Although the heavy engineering and cotton mills of the past have long ceased, these industries have been replaced by highly skilled, technical engineering companies such as Clean Air Power and Torotrak, providing hi-tech solutions for the reduction of CO2 emissions from large haulage vehicles and articulated lorries. In the case of Clean Air Power, CO2 reductions of 50% to 60% are the norm. Leyland is also the home to Schwans, which makes the famous Chicago town pizza.
	The people of Leyland and I strongly agree that regeneration is the key to the future success of local business, along with improved infrastructure and leisure facilities. I am delighted that, under the leadership of Councillor Margaret Smith, the leader of the Conservative South Ribble borough council, the Leyland regeneration board has been formed. The board is made up of prominent local businessmen and women with a wealth of local expertise, but more importantly, this is being carried out through the private sector and is not hamstrung by the red tape and bureaucracy of the public sector. All in all, the future for Leyland is a million miles from humdrum.
	The villages of Tarleton-where I live-Hesketh Bank and Banks were where the Normans "harried" the north in 1069 and they were allowed, under law, to continue their recreational violence of slaughtering any Saxons whom they came across in the "freelands". The fenlands, or marshes, surrounding the villages are now home to a 2,000 acre bird sanctuary and conservation area in the Ribble marsh estuary.
	Fortunately, the "freelands" are now some of the richest agricultural land in the country, which supports the horticulture, or growing, industry, producing crops that are an important source of the nation's food. That is one of our largest industries, with the growers supplying the major multiple retailers in both the UK and other parts of Europe. However, these companies, both large and small and employing large numbers of local people, feel weighed down and burdened by the rules, regulations and taxes imposed on them by the previous Administration. They, like many other businesses, feel pummelled by ever increasing business taxes, vehicle excise duties and fuel duties, and I welcome this Government's measures to help private business and enterprise flourish. The growers are desperate for new infrastructure to enable them to get their food crops from the growing fields to the main road network. In the bonfire of the quangos, the horticultural industry is looking to this Government to set fire to one of the last remaining dinosaurs of its type-the Agricultural Wages Board.
	Other villages of South Ribble are famous for many past and varied pursuits by the locals. Albert Pierrepoint, Britain's last official executioner, after his retirement owned the Rose and Crown public house in Much Hoole, the pub being affectionately known by its patrons as "the drop in". Jeremiah Horrocks, the curate of St Michael's church in Little Hoole, accurately predicted and witnessed the transit of Venus, last seen-after 121 years-in 2004. Mawdesley was the centre of basket-making in Lancashire, thanks to the fine willow grown on the banks of the River Yarrow. The village of Eccleston was once famous for growing more than 200 varieties of apples, and I am delighted that the community has recently come together to replant apple trees in gardens, on the green and in other public spaces.
	Small and medium-sized businesses are the mainstay of employment in South Ribble and the risk takers and innovators of our economy. These business people will certainly benefit from the measures outlined last week by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and fellow north-west MP, through his freedom, growth and enterprise agenda, and thanks to the new Government's regional growth fund, I am delighted that businesses in South Ribble will benefit to the tune of up to £5,000 per employee in national insurance contributions for the first 10 new employees.
	My constituency is home to many highly skilled and specialist employees in the defence industry in the north-west-one of the UK's pre-eminent defence industrial areas. BAE Systems, Europe's largest defence contractor, has a strong presence in my constituency, with many constituents having a deep-rooted and strong interest in the future of the Typhoon fighter aircraft and tranche 3B of the programme; in the Mantis, one of the world's leading unmanned air vehicles; and, of course, in the F-35 joint strike fighter aircraft, which is a Lockheed Martin programme with BAE Systems as its main partner. No one can pre-judge the outcome of the strategic defence and security review, but it will come as no surprise to the Front-Bench Defence team that I will be campaigning hard and fighting for my constituents for the Typhoon tranche 3B project to go ahead.
	I am very pleased to be making my maiden speech in this important debate on the progress and prospects in energy efficiency. It is with great regret, however, that the previous Government's Warm Front initiative has not been the success that was envisaged. Indeed, a number of my constituents, including a wheelchair-bound, 81-year-old gentleman, have come to me for help, following both initial consultations and installations by Warm Front agents in the north-west. They all have a sorry tale to tell-from being without hot water and heating for months on end after Warm Front carried out work on their properties, to vastly excessive charges over and above the £3,500 grant, appalling and shoddy workmanship and faulty equipment installed with no further responsibility from the companies involved.
	After a particular constituent was advised that he would be required to stump up an additional £8,000 to replace a boiler and central heating system in a two-bedroom bungalow, I contacted a local and well respected Corgi-approved heating engineer to give me a quote. That came in at a total cost of £2,800-£700 less than the grant of £3,500-for the same specification as Warm Front's agents. I implore the Minister to review the Warm Front scheme urgently, as I believe there to be unscrupulous companies exploiting both the taxpayer, who is certainly not getting value for money, and my constituents, who in many cases are families with young children and elderly and vulnerable individuals. I respectfully request that the Minister ensure that the Government's excellent green deal programme does not go the same way.
	Above all, the people of South Ribble wanted the Government off their backs and on their side. They believe that they know how to spend their hard-earned money better than any Government, and they voted for power to be handed back to the people. It is with great pride that I am in the House representing the people of South Ribble. I have vowed to put it on the map and to be South Ribble's voice in Westminster, and not the Westminster voice in South Ribble.

Jim Shannon: I congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your elevation. I also congratulate the three maiden speakers on their fascinating accounts of their constituencies, in particular the hon. Member for South Ribble (Lorraine Fullbrook), who was just ahead of the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon). I am now wondering where to spend my holidays-I was going to go to Florida, but I might go to all the different places mentioned as well. Dorset is on the map, too; it is not out of the question.
	As a Unionist, I would normally back off from green politics or policies, but this is one occasion when I am fully in support of the green agenda. I never thought I would come to the House of Commons and say that, but today I can, with all honesty. I congratulate the Minister on bringing his thoughts and ideas to the Floor of the House; he said lots of things from which I can take comfort. However, there are many other things I would like to comment on. First, I want to outline some areas where I believe advances can be made.
	Hopefully, the policies and targets we are trying to achieve are attainable. These days, efficiency is a word I dread. When someone mentions it, I think, "Oh my goodness, not more cutbacks. We're in trouble again." If we mention efficiency savings in schools, we are talking about school clubs being cut back, and if we mention them in hospitals, we are talking about night-time X-ray centres and accident and emergency departments being cut back. Those words send dread into the soul. However, there is one kind of efficiency that we are all happy to hear about-energy efficiency, and how it can be achieved and ultimately how it can bring about savings and a better way of life. We need to meet all our targets, including on carbon emissions. That is because the general public will be the winners from any efficiency that comes into play and which can be put to our advantage.
	I am further encouraged by the number of Members who have within their constituencies companies that are go-ahead and inventive and have genuine ideas for providing energy savings. It is good to have that vast knowledge and expertise to hit upon. As someone who represents a mixed urban and rural community, I am faced with the needs of each and the difficulties that the different sectors have faced. I am also faced with the opportunities that come from that, because each has to make a lasting difference to the future of Northern Ireland and the UK as a whole. I mention Northern Ireland because I represent a constituency there, so it is important for me to make that point.
	Wearing my other hat, as a Northern Ireland Assembly Member, I was part of a committee that highlighted energy efficiency. The rural community has a large input into energy production and development and the consideration of other uses of land. Will the Minister consider the issue of diversification for landowners into wind farms, sea turbines and opportunities for growing biomass, where energy savings and efficiencies can be made, and through which, ultimately, we can achieve the savings and efficiencies that we need? Strangford and Portaferry are leaps and bounds ahead of other places in many ways. I am saying that not just because I represent those areas, but because we have the first use of a tide turbine in the loch-the SeaGen project-which has begun to generate electricity for the area. It is a very successful and innovative idea. There are many others places in the United Kingdom where such an opportunity can be taken, and I hope that it will be encouraged.
	Wind turbines can go a long way towards creating the energy levels and efficiencies needed. I would also make the point-I have made it in the past-that many birds and wildlife migrate to Strangford, in particular Strangford loch, in the winter. Brent geese are one of the important birds that go there. However, wind turbines and migrating fowl together will create problems, so I have suggested to those involved that perhaps we need a balance and some protection. We are all playing the renewable energy game, but the provision of wind turbines must strike a balance and integrate well with nature. It is wonderful that the SeaGen turbine has become the source of electricity for thousands of homes in my constituency. I believe that we can do this even better; we should replicate the SeaGen turbine in Portaferry right across the United Kingdom. One size does not fit all-I accept that-but we have to look at the ways we can achieve those things.
	I put down this marker when it comes to offshore renewable energy: one thing must be protected, and that is the position and interests of the fisherman. Any future plans must ensure that they do not detract further from or decrease fishing locations, which would put the fishing industry under even more pressure. Given the potential for perhaps 300 sea and wind turbines on the coast, I believe that there will be an impact on a great many areas around the Irish sea coast, the Scottish coast and the rest of the UK.
	The fishing industry is very important in my constituency. As such, although we all want to see the benefits and opportunities of energy efficiencies and renewables, we also want the fishing industry to be protected. By its very nature, and because the European Union is mostly responsible for the restrictions, the news for the fishing industry is not always good news. We want to make sure that we strike a balance. We need to make sure that the targets for renewable energy are met; that fishing can continue and co-exist; that the threat of habitat extinction is recognised; that fishing boats are not allowed near the sea turbines due to collision risks. Noise is generated by wind turbines; those who have one not too far away know that. If that is multiplied by 10, 20 or in some cases 100, we can see the problems. We need to be sure that people's quality of life is not affected.
	Targets have been set for 40% of all electricity generated in Northern Ireland and the area I represent to be provided through renewable energy by 2020. Location is important, and co-existence and co-operation are vital if we are all to be supportive of goals that must be achieved. We cannot allow fishing fleets to be displaced; they can co-exist. The mussel and shellfish beds off the Copeland islands off Donaghadee are an important habitat and they must be protected.
	There are benefits to the economy, too. This has not been touched on so far, but as I understand it, wherever we have a sea or a wind turbine, we create jobs. Perhaps that jobs factor has not come into the equation so far, and the Minister will comment on it in summing up. In other parts of the UK, renewable energy generation has been approved and there are abundant examples of how it co-exists with other industries. That is just one of the many challenges for 2020 that I believe we should look at.
	In his introduction, the Minister mentioned that there would be no targets-I may have heard him incorrectly; I would like some clarification. Targets are not set just for the sake of it, but it is important to have them, so that we know when we are achieving some of our goals. It is not a matter of setting targets and then failing to achieve them; it is important to have something to aim for. We all set targets in our life-I know I do, and I presume other Members do, too. We need to have something to aim for in relation to what can be achieved.
	I referred earlier to the willow biomass project-another example of renewable energy of which Northern Ireland has taken advantage. I believe that it will reap benefits. There has to be a fairly vast acreage in order to get the advantage from it. Again, I would like to hear what incentives are available. It is not always about what grants are available; if there is an incentive for someone to plant willow biomass, why not do that? Perhaps the Minister will give us some indication of the incentives to encourage landowners, farmers or others who have the opportunity to develop it.
	I am also very aware of the CRC-carbon reduction commitment-energy efficiency scheme, which is being brought into operation throughout the UK. It applies to any public body which in 2008 had at least one half-hourly electricity meter. The half-hourly market is required to register for the scheme. The Environment Agency estimates that some 1,100 public bodies will be participants in the scheme. Other registered public sector bodies must make a simple information disclosure at registration at the start of each phase of the scheme. It is hoped that the scheme will raise awareness in business, which I think is important, and there must also be the promotion of consumer efficiency. Those are the joint goals to try to aim for. I have been a part of a group aimed at encouraging the promotion of the Energy Saving Trust in the Province. Again, the scheme could be pushed elsewhere in the UK.
	In these times of economic constraint, every pound saved will make a difference. It is not an exaggeration to say that pounds saved today will help balance the books at the end of the week. People need to understand that they can save around £37 a year by turning applications off standby, while reducing room temperature by 1° C can cut heating bills by up to 10%. Being a modern man-I am sure there are plenty of modern men in this Chamber-I know that washing clothes at 30° C instead of at higher temperatures uses around 40% less electricity. That may sound a trifle boring, but it is something that the modern man has to address. If people are committed to energy saving and to renewable policies, they should consider all these things.
	It is my hope that this Government will consider an initiative by which the regular working family can get help with grants to enable the installation of solar panels to generate hot water among other things. In the Minister's opening speech I think that there was mention of the legislation being put forward, and I would like to know more. Perhaps when I get a chance to read  Hansard, I will have a better idea of exactly how any system might work. We are keen to see how it might happen. The cost of solar panels, for example, is sometimes prohibitive to those who cannot access grants. Yet long-term benefit to the environment, which is what we are aiming for, will far will far outweigh any cost factor. I have been contacted by a great number of young couples who would like to be green in their lifestyles, but who are working to pay off their mortgage and simply cannot afford the upgrades. Again, how will that work? The idea of the system that I got was that there would not be grants as such, but I would like to know more about how it would work.
	Before I left to come here this morning, I saw a TV programme showing how energy-efficiency savings could be made in households-somewhere in London, I believe-whether it be through solar panels in the roof, the insulation of the walls or the collection of rain water in a downpipe, which is then put to household use. It provided a few examples of how that could happen. The person concerned spent a fairly large sum to make that happen, so the question I ask is how we can help those people to do more. How can we help families who cannot afford to do any of those things? That is something that we should look at, whether it be through a direct subsidy or through another method. If there is one, I would like to know what it is.
	The future of energy efficiency lies in renewable energy that co-exists with business; it lies with encouraging people to do the small things that make a big difference in their homes; and it lies with this House making the prospects attractive and in every way encouraging businesses and homes to go the extra mile and see what the benefits will be.

Tessa Munt: It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and to address the House for the first time on behalf of the people of Wells, the most beautiful constituency in the country.  [Interruption.] Yes it is.
	First, I wish to pay tribute to my predecessor, David Heathcoat-Amory, who sat in the House for 27 years, a longer period of service than that of any other MP for Wells since the Great Reform Bill. He was, perhaps, best known as a passionate Eurosceptic, and he voluntarily stood down from John Major's Government in order to pursue his convictions in that area. Although I do not share his views on Europe, I believe we should respect MPs who put such a premium on their principles. Mr Heathcoat-Amory has recently announced that he does not intend to stand for election again. He is a man with other interests and activities, and I wish him well for the future.
	Members will be familiar with the names of many places in the Wells constituency. It runs from the coast at Brean and Berrow, and Burnham-on-Sea and Highbridge in the west, to Shepton Mallet and Chilcompton in the east, and from Street in the south to Star and across the Mendips to Ston Easton in the north. My constituency also encompasses England's smallest city, Wells, with its glorious cathedral, and the towns of Glastonbury, Axbridge and the villages of Cheddar and Wedmore, and 170 other rural communities. I celebrate the addition of the village of Stratton-on-the-Fosse within the boundaries of the constituency at the last election, and recognise the service of my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) in previous years.
	Wells is rural Britain at its very best. The Mendip hills, reaching over 1,000 feet high, look down over the Somerset levels and moors, much of which is below sea level. Somerset is well known for its farming, its Cheddar cheese and its cider.

Louise Bagshawe: Hear, hear!

Tessa Munt: Yes.
	Somerset is heavily reliant on tourism, with 26,000 people employed in attracting and serving tourists. Perhaps, in this of all weeks, it is most familiar to the 145,000 music fans, 35,000 staff and over 20,000 volunteers who visited or worked in the village of Pilton for the 40th Glastonbury festival. Many people have enjoyed some or all of Michael Eavis's 40 years of festivals, including those devotees who watched some of the 60 hours of live BBC coverage-some of it from yurts, I might add in reference to earlier conversations in the House. People were living in teepees and in camps but this time there was no rain, so we suffered not the mud. The BBC coverage was even in competition with the World cup and Wimbledon.
	This weekend, I met people who first attended in 1970 at Worthy Farm, when the tickets cost £1 for the whole festival, which included free milk for the duration. The real benefit of the Pilton, or Glastonbury, festival is long-lasting: the huge support that Michael's festival brings to local communities and businesses and its promotion of Somerset and all it produces.
	My constituency is a place of both great history and great legend. People can trace the footprints of King Alfred and King Arthur, as well as of our first tourist, Joseph of Arimathea, who reputedly brought the holy grail to Glastonbury for safekeeping. However, despite its long history, I would not want anyone to think the area is anything other than a collection of thriving modern communities sharing many of the challenges confronting the country as a whole.
	I have entered the House because of my shouting at the radio in frustration for the past 20 years. I have spent most of my time saying, "People should be able to see that things can be done in a different way, and someone should do that." That frustration led me eventually-it possibly led my father initially-to think that that someone might be me, and that I should actually stand up for what I believe in.
	I therefore stood for election, and I hope that in my time here I will be able to bring a little more common sense. By way of example of that, let me offer some of the issues that have struck me over the past couple of weeks. One of my constituents has come to me and said that her village has just replaced two bins at a cost of £340 and that everyone accepts that. I think that is an absurd amount of money to be paying for two bins, particularly as they are to be used for dog poo. That sort of thing cannot be sensible, and must not be done unquestioningly on behalf of people. We need to check that we get value for money and insist that our councils and authorities across the country ensure that that is the case.
	My second example comes from Cross in my constituency. Again, the local authority has accepted that something may need to be done in that local community to alleviate some of the traffic problems, but a roundabout might cost £600,000. I cannot see how we can accept these things; we must ensure that in economically difficult times we question what is happening right the way through our land. I hope that I can bring a level of common sense.
	When I was standing for election, I did not expect to find myself on the Government Benches-that was a nice surprise. I was delighted that when I looked at the coalition agreement I found that 27 different Liberal Democrat manifesto pledges had found their way into it. I have been questioned on several occasions about what it is like to be in the coalition team. I have told people that it is not absolutely where I thought I was going to be, but that a seven or eight-year-old child might dream about playing for West Ham and then at the age of 21, having spent 12 years training, they might suddenly get an offer from Fulham. What do they do then? Do they say, 'No, no, I am going to hold on and wait until West Ham spot me"? They are not going to do that, and it is better to work with people and try to get spotted from somewhere else. Therefore, I view the coalition as a positive opportunity for Liberal Democrats to make progress in government and bring some of our manifesto pledges to bear.
	I wish to take this opportunity to draw to the House's attention some of the problems that I have experienced and that some of my constituents have experienced in relation to the subject of this debate, "Progress and prospects in energy efficiency". National Grid has put forward proposals to plant a series of pylons across the beautiful Somerset levels and the moors, and up through the neighbouring constituencies of Bridgwater and West Somerset, and North Somerset; the route goes from Hinkley Point to Seabank, in Avonmouth. It covers a distance of some 40 miles, but National Grid insists that it must transmit power from Hinkley Point through cables on overhead pylons. It wishes both to upgrade the current network and to prepare for some future transmission, which may come from wind farms, from a possible use of the Severn river-the barrage, the lagoon, the reef or whatever other method of transmission may come from that-or from microgeneration.
	The people of Somerset understand that there is a need to transmit electricity from A to B, but they surely have a right to some say in how that is done and how it might come about. National Grid sounds like a lovely beneficial or philanthropic organisation, but people need to remember that it is nothing like the National Gallery or the National Trust; it is a multinational corporation with its shareholders' interests at its heart. I say to hon. Members that it should be allowed-this House has a place in making this happen-to bring modern practice and thinking into its research and development functions. Pylons are a 1920s technology, and they are not the solution to 21st century transmission problems.
	The pylons that the National Grid Company proposes will be 400,000 KV, they will be 46 metres high-that is 152 feet in old money-they will hum, they will buzz and, most importantly, they will completely destroy the tourism opportunities in my constituency. The Campaign to Protect Rural England is trying to remove overhead lines and make moves to ensure that National Grid does not put pylons through areas of special landscape beauty, such as the national parks, or areas of outstanding natural beauty, such as the Mendip hills. It is also trying to prevent green belt land from being used. However, in a rural area an awful lot of land is not designated as such.
	When questioned, National Grid said that although a great deal of my constituency is under consideration for the 17th world heritage site in the country, since we had not achieved that status it did not have to have any regard to that fact. It seems that those who live in an urban area-the northern part of the line passes through bits of Bristol and Avonmouth-get automatic protection from this blight, because National Grid intends to put the power underground as it is near housing.
	This problem does not just affect 38,000 people. There are already 22,000 pylons in this country and 4,370 miles of overhead lines, and with the movement towards more nuclear power and, as I have said, the other forms of transmission that will be necessary, they will be coming to a place near all of us soon. So I come back to the fact that National Grid insists that pylons are the cheapest and most efficient means of carrying electricity. It does that because the framework in which it exists and the decisions that it is allowed to make fall within, as far as I can see, the Electricity Act 1989 and various other rules, such as the Holford rules, which date back to 1959. Those rules are stopping National Grid from considering the other options.
	All that people in my constituency want is a choice, and as of last October National Grid went out to what it called consultation. People have a choice of three routes-just two in my area, really. Those routes go near schools, they go across open land and they go near housing. We should not only consider economic efficiency and financial cost, as the Electricity Act 1989 insists. Views of efficiency must have changed since 1989. We must consider the whole-life costs of the construction of pylons. Surely we should be considering the environmental cost and the cost to land and farmers, such as those who are prevented from running organic farms because of the proximity of pylons. Most importantly, we must consider the issues of health, specifically that of children's health. Finally, we must consider transmission losses.
	National Grid faces opposition from thousands of local people. Some 38,000 are considered to be directly affected by the Hinkley to Avonmouth line alone. National Grid admitted that it was surprised by the number of responses that it received from people in Somerset and along the line. Up until now, it had received only 247-the maximum number of objections that it had ever had to any proposal. Now, after this so-called consultation, it is trying to respond to the 4,106 responses that it has received. The objectors notably include Griff Rhys Jones and Carol Vorderman. Bill Bryson, the CPRE's president, is on record as saying:
	"This is crazy-more pylons do not equal progress."
	Let me draw attention to the issue of health, in particular. There are illnesses-among them cancers, childhood leukaemia and depressive conditions-that are believed to be a health effect of living near high-voltage power lines. Studies at Bristol and at the university of California rate other illnesses and conditions as directly associated with electric and magnetic fields.
	In particular, I want to draw the Minister's attention to a huge study in Sweden, in which the effects of overhead power lines have been measured on 500,000 people over a period of 25 years. That study found overwhelming evidence that electrical fields generated cancer in children at four times the normal rate and at triple the rate in adults. Sweden now lists electromagnetic fields, which is exactly what we find with overhead lines, as a class 2 carcinogen along with tobacco. I could also quote from studies in Russia, India and the United States, and our Department of Health found a link between proximity to power lines and childhood leukaemia that was sufficient to warrant a precautionary recommendation, including the option to lay new power lines underground where possible and to prevent the building of new residential buildings within 60 metres of existing power lines.
	We should consider the framework in which National Grid must exist and think carefully before we force overhead power lines on to people in Somerset and across the country. What local people want is choice. It would be sensible and logical for them to be told the costs, risks and benefits of all the different types of transmission that could be used. It is clear from practices across the world that power can be put overground, as is proposed, but also underground and undersea. Surely, the most logical way of joining Avonmouth to Hinkley would be undersea. That is what people require. People should have the opportunity to say what they want having received all the information that they should have received. National Grid is running a new consultation, which involves it shouting at local people what it has already said: all it is doing is explaining in more detail why it is right and why people should not have that choice.
	Looking purely at the economic argument, even that can be dismissed because although National Grid says that underground routes might cost 10 or 20 times as much, its counterparts in Denmark and Germany have been able to use underground lines at between two and a maximum of five times the cost. Undersea lines are also being used, and there are grids around Europe and across the world. National Grid even admits that that would cost a fraction of a penny per kilowatt-hour. I and some of my electorate have costed its £1.2 billion plan, if there is such a thing-its proposal if it wanted to go undersea-and it comes out that the cost, over 50 years, would be but 33 pence per person per year. We should consider Bill Bryson's comments on progress and the very bleak prospects for the people of Somerset in terms of this proposal and energy efficiency.
	I ask the Minister to consider the draft national policy statement and to retrieve it from the black hole into which it may have disappeared before the election. I hope that he will look again at how we might make it work-for example, we could reconsider the Holford rules. Various paragraphs could be replaced by more balanced and neutral commentary on the pros and cons of undergrounding. Perhaps we should ask Ofgem to commit, in the next five years, to undergrounding a percentage of its network and to removing all the old pylons. We should also consider amending the Electricity Act 1989, particularly schedule 9, to require Ofgem and electricity companies to mitigate the landscape impact of electricity network infrastructure and to lay reports before Parliament on achievement.
	I thank the Minister for considering the issues I have raised and for realising that the threats to rural communities are real, particularly in relation to tourism, which is our lifeblood in Somerset. Thank you for allowing me the luxury of time to speak, Mr Deputy Speaker. I promise to be an active and enthusiastic Member of the House in representing the people of Wells and Somerset.

Barry Gardiner: May I take this opportunity to welcome you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to your new elected role? I look forward to serving in this House under your guidance. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), who gave a very thoughtful and considered speech on the various aspects of her constituency. I am delighted to have been here for that.
	In March the Conservatives proposed a
	"radical overhaul of Britain's energy policy".
	The right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) was not above taking a sideswipe at what he called
	"a succession of eleven energy Ministers and eight Secretaries of State"
	in the 13 years under Labour, so I welcome the fact that, less than 13 weeks since that document was published, the Prime Minister has already appointed a new Minister with responsibility for energy efficiency, and a new Secretary of State.
	However, it was not only the Energy Ministers who got a radical overhaul; Conservative energy policy did as well. The House will recall that in the Prime Minister's "husky days", when he went to Greenland to hug glaciers, we were told that nuclear power would be the Conservatives' "energy of last resort". Even so, in March they talked about fast-tracking the process of building new nuclear plant. Fast-tracking their energy of last resort?
	That, of course, was Conservative policy BC-before Chris. The new Secretary of State was obviously keen to recycle the old policy-some might say that he would rather have composted it-as his views on nuclear energy are well known. As long ago as 5 November 2007 he set out his position on his website, as follows:
	"Ministers must stop the side-show of new nuclear power stations now. Nuclear is a tried, tested and failed technology and the Government must stop putting time, effort and subsidies into reviving this outdated industry."
	No wonder it is called a coalition Government: some of them like coal, the rest of them prefer nuclear fission. It is a coal-ission-or perhaps it is more of a coll-ision.
	The fact is that by 2020 the following nuclear stations will have closed: Wylfa, Oldbury, Hinkley Point B, Hunterston B, Heysham 1, Hartlepool and Dungeness B. The stations at Torness and Heysham 2 will follow soon thereafter. That is approximately 18% of the UK's power generation that we will have to source elsewhere, just to maintain our current level of consumption. However, that description fails to account for any increase in population or consumption patterns, and it also means that a huge effort will be needed just to maintain an unsustainable status quo-a perfect description of Conservatism in general.

Thomas Docherty: Is my hon. Friend aware that a large number of coal power stations are also going to close? The Scottish Power station at East Lothian is one of many examples, so the Government will have an even bigger gap to close.

Barry Gardiner: My hon. Friend is entirely right, and the example that he gives illustrates the extent of the gap opening up between our generation capacity and our predicted levels of consumption. I hope that he will pursue that point, perhaps in his own remarks later this afternoon.
	Of course, the best way to manage this shortfall in supply is to engineer a corresponding shortfall in demand. That is where energy efficiency is critical, and I was delighted that the Minister of State with responsibility for energy efficiency visited the Mark Group's home energy efficiency academy earlier this month to welcome their 1,000th graduate-Shaun, I believe his name was. The academy is exactly the sort of resource that we need if we are to make sure that our small and medium-sized construction enterprises have the skills that they need to retrofit insulation to all the UK's housing stock.
	I trust that the Minister will acknowledge the fact that the Mark Group academy was set up in November 2007 as part of the Labour Government's green homes initiative. In fact, Bill Rumble, the Mark Group director, said at the time:
	"We welcome the Prime Minister's"-
	that is our Prime Minister, not the Conservative party's Prime Minister-
	"environment plans as a real step in the right direction in the task of arresting climate change and reducing the UK's carbon emissions.
	The Mark Group agrees with Gordon Brown's assertion that the UK can take a global lead in tackling climate change and in doing so generating thousands of jobs."
	I do not wish to detract from the Government's green deal; indeed, I applaud it. We need to accelerate the work of insulating the millions of homes without adequate loft insulation, and the millions of homes without cavity wall insulation. However, I would simply make two points. It is all very well to celebrate the 1,000th graduate trainee, but it sits uneasily with the abolition of the Train to Gain programme, which helped small construction and other companies to acquire precisely such skills, and to equip themselves and their workers for the green jobs of the future.
	The second point is that it makes no sense to ask householders to improve the energy efficiency of their homes at the same time as increasing the cost of doing so by 2.5%. I challenge the Secretary of State to show that deep inside his new Teflon Tory exterior there is still a limp Liberal longing to get out-to show us that the Liberal pledge before the election not to raise VAT was more than just the point scoring that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills has claimed it was. I ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to speak to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. The latter is another Liberal, and is, I think, the Member with the longest constituency name-Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey. After yesterday's oration to the House, he is also the Member with the shortest political credibility. They should agree to reduce VAT on the materials and labour used for increasing the energy efficiency of domestic properties. That would make a real difference. If the VAT on such work was 5% instead of 20%, that would go a tremendous way towards incentivising householders and other property owners to make sure that they do the necessary work.
	If the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change will not do that, rolling out smart meters in every home; piloting pay-as-you-save and ways to make homes greener; introducing clean energy cashback schemes; and making the UK a centre of green industry-all that-is just so much recycling of the stated policy of the last Government, as set out in the "The UK Low Carbon Transition Plan", published in July last year. The truth is that approximately 90% of what Ministers have announced in their green deal comes from that document. No wonder earlier this month the Department issued a YouTube video entitled "Chris Huhne launches Wind Week".
	Today, the Committee on Climate Change released its second annual report on progress towards a low-carbon economy. The committee makes it clear that we can deliver on our commitment to reduce emissions by at least 34% by 2020, but only if we accelerate our roll-out of renewables and effect a step change in domestic energy efficiency. So let me welcome the Secretary of State's remarks today, in which he said:
	"we mustn't rely on economic recession to cut emissions."
	I agree. He continued:
	"There has to be an enduring shift to low carbon...locked into the fabric of our economy in good times and bad."
	I commend to him "A Woodfuel Strategy for England". After a very modest investment of about £16 million-million, not billion-a year for only seven years, it would show net benefits of approximately £30 million a year in energy cost savings, and would save 400,000 tonnes of CO2 emissions. More than that, it would improve the biodiversity of our woodland heritage by cropping, lopping and clearing deadwood from under-managed woodland. The equivalent of 250,000 homes could be heated for a net £30 million benefit per annum, and the reinvigoration of our broadleaf woodlands-a truly efficient ecosystem-based solution. I hope the Minister will speak to his colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and implement this strategy as part of his green deal.

Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman is an acknowledged expert and has a distinguished record in the field of woodland and forestry, in particular. It is hard to conceive how that would fit into the green deal, but I acknowledge his expertise and I personally have an interest in being more ambitious in relation to the wood economy. If he would care to come into the Department and discuss it with me and officials, we could look at ways in which, in the context of these straitened financial times, we could do more to support that industry.

Barry Gardiner: I am grateful to the Minister for that offer, and I would be happy to take him up on it.
	The wood fuel strategy is an important element of our energy efficiency programme. Wood is renewable and can be sourced locally, minimising transport costs. It is incredibly efficient, and represents part of the way in which we could transform local communities. I think that the Minister was present when there was an intervention from the Opposition Benches about the bulk provision of heat to communities and the importance of large biomass boilers, which could provide for communities in a much more energy-efficient way. That fits in with the wider aims of an energy efficiency strategy. I am grateful to the Minister for his offer, and look forward to speaking to him further about it.
	If we are to make real progress on energy efficiency, public transport must become a priority for the new Government, which currently it is not. To put it simply, public transport must be the easiest, most accessible, most affordable and most reliable service available to the public. I was disappointed that the Minister said not one word about public transport as an instrument for delivering energy efficiency. Transport represents a fifth of the UK's greenhouse gas emissions; it did not represent so much as one fiftieth of his speech.
	However, I welcome the new Government's proposal to introduce a minimum price for carbon. The second progress report from the independent Committee on Climate Change, which was published today, states:
	"The carbon price within the EU Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS), and future expected prices, remain low. For the interim period before new electricity market arrangements are introduced, and in the absence of EU-wide action, there is a strong case for introduction of a UK carbon price floor".
	If the private sector is to be encouraged to invest in a low-carbon future, it must be given confidence that its investment will reap appropriate rewards. A floor price for carbon gives stability, and that certainty for the market that will drive investment. I welcome it.
	Sometimes in this debate, party Front-Bench spokespeople have been tempted to imply that only their party has seen the light, saw the light first, or uniquely has the solutions to our energy problems. I was a late convert to environmental matters. Indeed, my family sometimes still admonish me for putting apple cores in the wrong bin. The environment was not on my political radar when I entered the House 13 years ago. Now I hold it to be the most vital topic on the political agenda, so I welcome the Conservative party's proposals for improving energy efficiency. However late they are I welcome them, especially where they have adopted good Labour party proposals. I welcome them even more when they get Liberals to go nuclear, even if under the coalition agreement the Liberals do not have to vote nuclear.
	I hope the new Government will live up to their undoubted enthusiasm and undoubted good intentions on energy efficiency and climate change, but I warn them that we on the Opposition Benches will hold them to account where they backslide, and for the areas in which they fail to make the progress that we all need.

Louise Bagshawe: It is a pleasure to be called in the debate and to follow such excellent maiden speeches, most recently from my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Lorraine Fullbrook) and the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt). My hon. Friend invoked the spirit of the suffragettes, and I am sure that she will have to plant no bombs in order to make an impact in the House. Her colleagues were most satisfied at her victory at the general election. The hon. Lady the Member for Wells gave a full and beautiful account of her lovely constituency, which I have visited, and I have enjoyed the Glastonbury music festival myself. She also touched briefly on the wonderful produce available in her constituency-the cheese and the cider. That was rather cruel on those of us who have been sitting here since before Prime Minister's questions and have not yet had lunch. Those are two very different constituencies, but they share one thing in common-they have fluent and talented Members of Parliament who are prepared to stand up for their constituents and fight passionately for them in the Chamber. I congratulate both Members on their maiden speeches.
	There can be no doubt that we have, in this coalition Government, a Government who are prepared to make huge changes in our energy policy, including in respect of energy efficiency, and we have heard much about that from those on the Front Bench today. This is something that my constituents in Corby and east Northamptonshire will welcome very much. In my constituency, 12.8% of households still live in fuel poverty, and any measures that the Government can bring to bear that will assist them will be incredibly welcome. I was encouraged to hear my hon. Friend the Minister touch on the Government's commitment to lead from the front by reducing energy consumption by over 10% in Whitehall Departments in this year alone, 2010-the 10-10 programme.
	One aspect of energy saving that has not yet been touched on in the debate is the way that the transparency revolution, which the Prime Minister intends to bring into all areas of government, will effect energy savings. Maidenhead council led the way by putting online in real time its energy consumption, and as soon as ratepayers could see the amount of energy consumed by the council, energy use in the council dropped during the next few months by 15%. Transparency is one other avenue that we can explore at local and national government level to ensure that we lead by example.
	As various other hon. Members have mentioned-my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), and even the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) touched on this in her opening remarks-efficiency in energy goes two ways: we must play defence but we must also play attack. I am in the unusual position of agreeing with the hon. Gentleman when I say that we must look at energy policy in the round. We cannot consider energy efficiency if we do not also look at the ways in which energy is being generated. This is of great concern to my constituents in Corby and east Northamptonshire, who are very concerned about saving the planet. I am a Conservative; I wish to conserve. I wish to conserve both the world in which we live and the beautiful countryside of east Northamptonshire, which I represent.
	In north Northamptonshire, 10 separate wind farms have been applied for or are in development, of which three threaten my constituency and are very much opposed by local people. I hope that when Ministers consider energy policy and the vital importance of renewables, they will maintain our true commitment to localism. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said that one size does not fit all, and that must remain true. East Northamptonshire has one of the lowest wind areas in the United Kingdom, and energy must be efficient when it is produced just as when it is consumed. My constituents remember the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) saying that he intended to impose onshore wind turbines even when they were not wanted. He said:
	"Government needs to be saying it is socially unacceptable to be against wind turbines in your area-like not wearing a seatbelt."
	I happen to believe that it is both sensible and prudent for the people of east Northamptonshire to oppose wind farms in their area, given that they are in the lowest wind area in the United Kingdom. They live in an area of extraordinary natural beauty, and it is my duty to help to preserve it.
	Let us compare the efficiencies of onshore and offshore wind. I shall try not to blind the House with statistics in the manner of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), but a couple are worth listening to, because the difference in output is so remarkable. Out of 262 UK wind farms, 250 are onshore, and they produce about 3,500 MW between them. The mere 12 that are offshore, however, produce about 1,000 MW between them, and that level of efficiency must be taken into account when we look at wind power and how it is generated.
	My hon. Friend the Minister spoke about a step change, and given our current situation, and the fact that we are considering energy efficiency and a low-carbon economy, that is exactly what is needed. We will not shift to a low-carbon economy unless we embrace nuclear power. If we are to embrace nuclear power and bring it in to provide for energy efficiency, energy security and a low-carbon economy, we must bring the public with us, but we will not do so unless we look at safe ways of disposing of nuclear waste.
	My constituency also faces the prospect of a nuclear dump in the village of King's Cliffe, 20 miles from which 250,000 people live in various towns and cities. The dump is opposed by local authorities of all stripes, from Labour-controlled Corby borough council to Tory-controlled East Northamptonshire council and Northamptonshire county council. I am a huge supporter of nuclear power, but it cannot be delivered if applications for dumps completely ignore safety levels. The application in my constituency is essentially nothing more than a large hole in the ground. An application has also been made to transport huge volumes of low-level waste across the country. The previous Government introduced that change in policy, and until then the site could not even have been considered. When rain reacts with the waste, radioactive leachate forms, and that will have to be pumped out and transported to Avonmouth.

Alan Whitehead: I have listened carefully to the hon. Lady. She is in favour of nuclear but not in her area, because of the consequences; and she is in favour of wind but not in her area, because of the consequences. Are there any appropriate low-carbon technologies for her area which she could support?

Louise Bagshawe: I am in favour of nuclear power. I am in favour of the safe disposal of nuclear waste. I am not in favour of the unsafe disposal of nuclear waste, which is proposed for my area, where there are no nuclear power stations for miles around. I am in favour of wind power, and, as I said, I am in favour of offshore wind power, which is highly efficient. Sadly, however, my constituency is landlocked, so I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that he seeks, namely that I am in favour of offshore wind power in my constituency, because there is nowhere to put it.
	In contrast, let us look at safe nuclear waste disposal sites-the type that will encourage public confidence in a new generation of nuclear power stations. The Dounreay site in Caithness has already received planning permission, and in contradistinction it proposes to put waste in steel drums, compact them and place them inside steel containers within a concrete-lined and covered vault. I can see how that would instil confidence in people. The people in King's Cliffe and its surrounding areas have all the confidence of knowing that there is a certain type of clay at the site. The application does not even possess a roof.
	Is it any wonder that my constituents have asked me for help? My predecessor said that he would not get involved because it was "a planning matter", but I happen to believe that on such major planning matters people cry out for an MP's protection. A true carbon economy must be based on nuclear power. Is it nimbyism to say that an application is completely unsuitable? I do not think it is if one can make the case. Hundreds of my constituents have made that case in their representations to me, and when the application comes up for appeal in October I shall write to the relevant Secretaries of State to oppose it most vehemently.
	In my mind, the most important thing that has happened in the field of energy over the past couple of years is the announcement in Japan by Toyota that it is developing a solar cell that can power a car. That will truly change geopolitics, energy security and our planet. Indeed, "Passion", the excellent book that I wrote in 2010 and was nominated as romantic novel of the year-I highly recommend it to the House-was a thriller based around just that theme. I urge the Minister and the rest of the Front-Bench team to look long and hard at investing in solar power once the technology is in place to harness the power of the sun. There will no local objections anywhere to the power of the sun, so we will be in very good shape.
	Meanwhile, I know that the Front-Bench team are doing everything that they can. I ask them again to look at the transparency revolution and encourage local councils to bring forward efficiency measures and put their energy use online, so that people see savings being made in real time.
	In the speech that he made when standing for the leadership of my party, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister famously said:
	"Let sunshine win the day",
	and a little transparency in energy conservation would surely not go amiss. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker; I look forward to hearing further contributions.

Nigel Evans: I am new to this job, so I shall have to have another look at "Erskine May" to see what it says about product placement.

Nia Griffith: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker; you have taken the words out of my mouth. Perhaps the Minister will place some very large solar panels in the constituency of the hon. Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe).
	Let us get on with the issue of prospects in energy efficiency. First, I should like to talk about the situation of the Welsh Assembly Government and the cuts. As we know, energy efficiency does not often get called a front-line service. Housing and education are clearly front-line services, but they take a large proportion of the Assembly budget. What money is left for the measures such as those carried out by the Department for Communities and Local Government in England-housing issues-and the excellent Welsh Home Energy Efficiency scheme, which is similar to the English Warm Front scheme? It worries me that the cuts to the Assembly Government could disproportionately affect what energy efficiency measures they are able to implement.
	The Assembly Government have some innovative schemes in the valleys, where they are renovating ageing properties, which have traditionally had poor energy efficiency. That type of scheme could be under threat. I hope that the Minister will make representations to Treasury Ministers that particular consideration needs to be given to protecting energy efficiency budgets. That also applies to the money passed to the Assembly Government.
	Sometimes, there are special schemes that attract a "Barnett consequential"-a technical term for additional funding for a recently announced Government measure that had not previously been put into the budget. The boiler scrappage scheme came under that title. If we do not get the funding in, a lot of the good work that has been going on could easily dry up.
	We have to give much greater priority to energy efficiency than has been evident in much of the talk about which services we can protect. We all understand that if we get the investment in and continue to push for considerable amounts of energy efficiency savings, that will have considerable impact on savings made by individuals and public bodies.
	During the last Government, there were productive discussions about feed-in tariffs and in April this year a scheme was launched, incentivising those who produce their own energy to produce extra, which they can feed into the grid. Such people are often extremely conscious of energy efficiency measures in their own homes, and they also contribute to the energy needs of the nation. I am disappointed that feed-in tariffs have not yet been extended to people who already had energy-saving equipment installed in their homes-the pioneers who two or three years ago, when such things were much more expensive and not so many Government grants were available, were putting photovoltaic systems, solar panels or wind turbines on their properties and were able to feed electricity into the grid. The coalition Government need to look carefully at what they can do to ensure that those who already had these installations benefit from the feed-in tariffs, not necessarily backdating that to cover all the electricity that has ever been produced from such installations, but from April, when that benefit was introduced for people who had new installations put in.
	That relates to an issue that I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) will mention-renewable heat incentives. I will leave him to elaborate further, but it is another matter that the coalition Government need to look at again. They should support the plans that we had for 2011.
	A difficulty appears to have arisen across the country in terms of electricity costs, which are allowed to vary because Ofgem accepts that varying costs in different geographical areas reflect the cost of service provision. However, that leaves people in south Wales with an average electricity bill of perhaps £467 per year, while those in the midlands may pay £433 per year. Surely such regional differences are an outdated anomaly when the market has been opened up so that all providers can now supply different areas and one supplier no longer supplies one area alone. Will the Minister have talks with Ofgem to see whether the current pricing arrangements can be looked at again, because they do not seem to be very fair and equitable?
	I am also very concerned about rented property. It is often the poorest families who find themselves in private rented accommodation, some of which is frankly disgraceful. It can be very draughty because it has never been properly insulated, and the costs that residents pay for their energy provision are enormous. They often do not have central heating and are paying for the bar on the electric fire or the most inefficient forms of gas fire. There has been no encouraging sign from the Government, or from the Minister today, that they are going to regulate landlords in the way that Labour planned to do. This needs to be tackled head on, not only in regulating the types and standards of property but in incentivising landlords to upgrade the energy efficiency ratings of the properties that they rent out. The lack of such energy efficiency is a serious problem for those members of our society who are least able to pay.
	Another issue that the Minister would do well to tackle is waste in commercial premises. When we put on our coats to go and do our shopping in the autumn, in the run-up to Christmas, we find ourselves in various forms of shop or shopping centre with open doors and enormously overheated areas. Of course we must have a reasonable amount of heat for the shop assistants working there, but an awful lot of people complain that they are absolutely boiling when they are walking around these shops. Obviously the shops would benefit from spending a lot less on the heat that they are producing, but as yet they still seem to be doing it. There is a great need for discussions with the Minister about ways of trying to keep temperatures down to sensible levels and thereby make considerable savings; perhaps there could be voluntary codes. Linked to that is the huge amount of money that is spent on heating and lighting shop displays for 24 hours a day. Perhaps we could think about guidelines on the excessive amount of energy that is used in commercial premises at all hours, even when they are not open to the public.
	Public transport is a major source of energy use, and it contributes significantly to what we can do about our carbon emissions. I share with my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) considerable disappointment that we have not heard a lot more about it, either from the Minister today or in the coalition Government's programme.
	We need to continue to invest heavily in rail infrastructure, whether through electrification of the line from London to south Wales, which I hope will go further than Swansea and out into west Wales, or through building terminals that enable freight to go by rail more easily. That could be achieved through increased rolling stock, because people do not enjoy a journey when they are packed into an overcrowded train like sardines in a tin, and they therefore revert to going by car. All those matters need to be considered carefully if we are to reduce the amount of car traffic.
	There is rolling stock for Sunday trains, and it is a great shame that it is not used more extensively. In my area, people of course go shopping on Sundays, and they like to go to sporting events and the seaside. However, we are on the main line from London to west Wales and the earliest train that we can get on a Sunday from Llanelli to Tenby, a well known seaside resort, is at quarter to 3 in the afternoon. When someone gets their family there it is quarter past 4, by which time there is no point being there for a nice day at the seaside. Instead, people pile into their cars and cause traffic jams and huge queues at Carmarthen. When they get to Tenby, the traffic is so bad that there is a park-and-ride scheme to keep the town centre free for pedestrians. It is an absolute nightmare, but if people could go by train it would all be avoided. We need to reconsider people's ability to go away for weekends to stay with their families and so forth, and we need a much clearer picture of franchise requirements for Sundays, which should reflect changed lifestyle patterns. I hope that the Minister will talk to his colleagues in the Department for Transport to see whether they can give public transport a greater priority.
	Another matter that I should like the Minister to take up with his colleagues in the DFT is encouraging people to think about their fuel consumption in their private cars. I think a few Members are in their places who will remember the 1970s, when a limit of 50 mph was imposed because of the so-called fuel crisis. A lot of people are unaware of the different fuel consumption patterns of their vehicles and the fact that going at very high speeds can often increase consumption considerably. We need a public information campaign, as we have had on other energy efficiency matters, to point out to people what savings they can make. People are incentivised by the idea of saving, but they are unaware or forget that savings exist. Obviously the situation is not the same for all vehicles. They vary, and technology has improved enormously, but there are still savings to be made and well informed public information campaigns could help considerably.
	I shall finish now, because I know that many other Members would like to get in. We have to ensure that we do not let the whole issue of reducing our emissions and being as energy efficient as possible become sidelined by people who say, "We cannot afford to do that because of the financial crisis". We cannot afford not to do it, because great savings can be made from both the public purse and private individuals' pockets. We must all make the most of every opportunity to push the Government for a much more energy-efficient programme.

Neil Carmichael: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak. I missed the opening speeches, and I am very sorry about that. It was an error on my part-I was somewhere else when they were taking place, and I regret it because I would have liked to hear what the Front Benchers said. I may well repeat something that has already been said. Nevertheless, energy efficiency is a really important subject, and it is great that we are having this debate.
	While I was sitting here and hearing about the fuel crisis of the 1970s, when Ted Heath was Prime Minister, I was reminded of the fact that the Department of Energy was created at that time to solve the crisis of the shortage of fuel and deal with the issue of coal. More recently, the Department of Energy and Climate Change has been created to carry out the different task of ensuring that our energy use is more efficient and carbon-friendly. I welcomed its new guise when it was introduced by the Labour Government and I salute it now as it is still in place.
	The most important thing that we can do is liberalise the energy market to encourage more transparency and competition. By doing that, we would effectively introduce new systems of energy provision, which would to some extent be micro-and I will have much to say about one particular form later. It is essential that we recognise that the energy market in the future has to be much more liberal in both supply and demand terms, although I shall concentrate on supply today.
	The coalition Government have made some fantastic strides forward and have in place an excellent team of Ministers in DECC. The Government have also introduced the green deal, and I note that that has been well saluted by Labour Members as it has by my colleagues. The Government are also talking about a smart grid approach. It is important that we have a grid that is much more receptive to new types of energy from smaller micro locations. I made much of feed-in tariffs during the election campaign, because my constituency is really excited about such issues, and those tariffs will be a huge step in the right direction. The green investment bank will also encourage new technologies to be developed and launched.
	One of those new technologies must be modern micro hydro schemes. The role that micro hydro generation can play will be enormous, and it will help in several other areas. What is a micro hydro scheme? A small scheme generates between 1 MW and 15 MW, a mini scheme generates less than 1 MW but more than 100 KW and a micro scheme generates between 5 KW and 100 KW. The latter is sufficient to supply half a small community or small rural industry, and that is what I want to talk about in some detail today.
	It is true that sometimes it is difficult to introduce technology of any description, because there is always someone to say that it should not be adopted. Wind power has that difficulty, and actually so does hydro power. We must think more in terms of incentivising, rather than of yielding to the "not in my back yard" approach. That is an important point for all micro energy schemes.
	Hydro schemes, by their very nature, will be bespoke. They deal with water, and it does not come in square tins ready for tapping, but in rivers, ponds, pools and mills that are all different shapes. The other important aspect of hydro schemes is that they can help in dealing with other things, such as flood management. In Stroud, we have quite a lot of flood problems, including floods down valleys and along the vale. Controlling water through some sort of flood management scheme can lead to a hydro electric solution, and we can consider that as part of our overall environmental policies.
	In Stroud, for example, I can see opportunities where introducing hydro schemes would also help flood problems by harnessing water halfway up a valley rather than allowing it to flood at the bottom. In fact, I am hoping to speak to the Minister shortly on this very subject, because he has been to Stroud and looked at a typical mill pond with all the characteristics one would need, first, for flood management and, secondly, for electricity production through a hydro scheme. I hope that will be developed in some detail. There are plenty of opportunities for that elsewhere in the country. Stroud has more than 200 old mill, but there are more than 20,000 across England, all of which, to some extent, could play a role in hydro generation. We need to bear that in mind.

Gregory Barker: May I assure my hon. Friend that although I visited his constituency while we were in opposition, I well remember the visit and was extremely impressed with that micro hydro installation? There is plenty of scope for increasing the role of microgeneration technology in particular. He is absolutely right that it plays a dual role in generating electricity and in flood abatement, and I can assure him that the Department is looking with fresh eyes at this issue.

Neil Carmichael: I thank the Minister very much. That is more than worth the time I waited to make this speech.
	I want to expand my argument. Small households can also have micro schemes, which I would like to see and which we can enable. This country has so many waterways open to that very small potential scheme. However, there are things to be aware of, one of which is the Environment Agency's responsibility for managing waterways. It has functions connected with, for example, fish management. Fish and hydro schemes do not, of course, necessarily go together, because as somebody pointed out to me the other day, a hydro scheme is a very good fish masher. So we need to find ways of protecting fish and allowing them to flourish rather than simply putting them through a masher. However, the Environment Agency also needs to be encouraged to note the advantages of flood management and hydro power when considering its overall responsibilities for waterways.
	When I went last week to an npower-sponsored event encouraging universities to think about new technology, particularly energy technology, I noticed just how imaginative students can be. Two universities won. Bristol university came up effectively with a mobile telephone tariff system for energy supply, which is well worth considering and expanding. I am hoping to talk to the university in more detail about its scheme, because I think it could be quite useful. The university of Birmingham came up with a scheme for hydro power and made it clear that it is not so much the flow that matters as the amount of water available. It did some interesting mathematical calculations to make that point. Again, I want to take that up in more detail. In essence, we need to liberalise the energy market, particularly in small-scale areas, and hydropower can, and will, play a significant role.
	My second point is about nuclear power. The hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) talked about nuclear power and commented on the Liberal Democrat's position on it compared with our own. I am keen on nuclear power because I recognise that it is obviously the provider of a base load. We have to understand that a significant amount of energy will always be used at any time, and the kind of facilities needed to produce that will include a nuclear power station.
	Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, the President of France from 1974 to 1981, tackled energy pressures in France quite well, by recognising that France should not be dependent on oil, but instead move over to nuclear power. Today, more than 80% of French energy is produced by nuclear power, with the rest produced by renewables; and anyone who drives down as a holidaymaker, as I often do, can see quite a lot of renewables.

Damian Collins: My hon. Friend is making some important points about nuclear power. Does he agree that sensible planning for the future needs of nuclear power and the amount of base load energy that we might require from nuclear energy is important? It would be sensible to advance with as many viable sites as possible, in order that we can get as much new nuclear on stream as soon as possible, so does he also agree that Dungeness power station in my constituency should be considered as an additional site for the new build programme?

Neil Carmichael: I concur with everything that my hon. Friend has said. We need to plan ahead and recognise that even if we start building a new power station tomorrow, we would still be getting less electricity from nuclear power for some time to come because of the decommissioning process, so we need to take action and get on with it. However, there are some key points to be made, and one of them must be this: nuclear power has to be cost-effective. It is important that we recognise that. The second most important thing-this is especially important for me, as I have a nuclear power station in my constituency that is being decommissioned-is that the cost of the clean-up must be included in the cost of the overall nuclear bill. We cannot go on mopping up afterwards. We have to be sure that the cost of building and running a nuclear power station includes the cost of clean-up.

Thomas Docherty: I used to work at Berkeley power station a few years ago, so I am familiar with it, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman of the deep affection in which nuclear power is held in his constituency, as I am sure he knows. One thing that would perhaps concern me about the coalition's plans for cuts is the effect on the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority. One point that I hope he will be raising with the Minister is that when the NDA's budget is set for the next five to 10 years, the important thing will be getting the right decommissioning strategy, not keeping his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer happy.

Neil Carmichael: I certainly recognise the public expenditure pressures on the decommissioning costs at Berkeley, because I was there when a reduction was made in the spending round towards the tail-end of the previous Government, so I tend to agree with what the hon. Gentleman has said. I am pleased that he was at Berkeley and I hope that he enjoyed it there. It is in a beautiful part of my constituency, notwithstanding the fact that the power station is still there in its concrete form. The rest of the area is absolutely beautiful, and it is a perfectly safe place to be. I have been there several times myself, so if the hon. Gentleman still has any friends there, I will pass on his greetings.
	That is what I wanted to say about nuclear power-that it has to be cost-effective and include the cost of clean-up-but I agree that we need a plan to ensure that we know where the next power stations are going to be.

Louise Bagshawe: My hon. Friend is making some excellent points about nuclear power. Does he agree that in order to advance the programme, we need to take local people with us? Does he also agree that his constituency and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) and for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) are perfect examples of where local people are welcoming and embracing nuclear power, which is what we need to bring forward?

Neil Carmichael: We certainly do need to have localism in our planning system. It is great that this Government are so determined to ensure that local people have a proper say in all aspects of planning-certainly in housing, and also in infrastructure and energy-and quite right too. The answer to a lot of these issues is to incentivise local communities to take up the things that are not only necessary in our national interest but able to reflect their concerns. It is quite right that our people are keener than one might imagine on building nuclear power. I am from the north-east, so I know a little bit about Windscale-it is Sellafield now; I am quite old. There is support in those places, so I agree with my hon. Friend.
	I want to say a few words about transport, as public transport in particular was mentioned earlier. The key thing is that we need to consider electric cars more than we have in the past. We need to recognise that they are a reality and that we can develop the technology in ways that would impress someone like Jeremy Clarkson. The brutal fact is that the electric car will in the long run be a reliable thing to get about in for long journeys, and the charging of those cars might well turn out to be easier than we first imagined.
	I am delighted to say that my constituency has a manufacturer-Himag-producing transformers no bigger than a fist that can propel a Hummer vehicle. If anyone knows anything about a Hummer vehicle, they will know that it is large and heavy. That sort of technology is already out and about, and some large car manufacturers-Renault is one example, I believe-are already preparing to launch a range of models that would suit families or individuals quite well. I believe that those cars will be on the market in two or three years' time. We should celebrate and encourage that sort of technology.
	Trains are also really important. I use the train all the time. From Stroud, it has to be diesel because we do not have electrified lines, but we need to think more about that. We also need to think about getting more trains on the track, as we now have the technology that allows that to happen. We should invest in that technology so that we can produce the train that takes people to where they need to be and thus increase traffic flow.
	I was impressed by the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), who talked about pylons. She is quite right that pylons crossing the landscape are not particularly attractive, but I would end on this important point about electricity supply. There are people living in Amberley who would just love to have a reliable electricity supply; they are waiting for underground cables to be put in, so that a proper electricity supply can get to all parts of the area. It is important to realise that there are ways of doing these things and also that local communities, such as Littleworth in Amberley, have needs.
	In summary, I think that liberalising the market is the key. Having confidence in technology is also essential, as is being willing to take those technologies forward by incentivising local communities and individuals to grasp the opportunities before them. Those are the ways in which we can, first, secure our energy supply and, secondly, make sure that that supply is good for our environment and good for the communities that use the energy.

Alan Whitehead: I have detected that in recent contributions we seem to be falling into something of a nuclear idyll, so I want to try to pour a little cooling water, shall we say, on that particular idyll. We need to recognise that nuclear power and its consequences-irrespective of whether they are loved by local citizens or built in the Corby constituency-are some way away. There will in all probability be no nuclear power coming on stream until the early 2020s. If and when it comes on stream, assuming that new nuclear power stations are built at no public expense, they will be relatively small in output over the early years.
	This emphasises that nuclear power is not coming over the hill tomorrow to save us all as far as low-carbon energy is concerned. The targets on carbon emissions reduction and, indeed, the replacement of something like 40% of our generation and transmission capacity by the early 2020s will have to be achieved without nuclear power by means relating to renewable energy, the building of conventional power plants-I trust with carbon capture technology-and, of course, a very substantial step forward in energy efficiency.

Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend has not mentioned the issue of life extensions to existing nuclear power stations such as Hunterston B and Torness, which would certainly take us through the gap period.

Alan Whitehead: My hon. Friend raises the interesting point of the possible life expectancy of nuclear power plants. I recognise that there is something of a dilemma in respect of old and new nuclear power stations and predictions of extensions, and that there are issues such as core cracking and whether extensions can be safely undertaken. He makes a fair point, however, that some extensions might be undertaken to bridge the gap. The key point, however, is that one of the best ways to ensure our energy supplies are secure over the coming period and that the generation meets the demand is to ensure that there is less demand for energy, and that the energy we do use is used much more efficiently.

Mark Tami: I agree with my hon. Friend that even if we start building nuclear power stations now, there will be a 10-year period before they really start to have an impact, but unless we take that decision now we will face an even greater gap in future, which we will have to fill by some other means. Just putting that decision off until tomorrow will make the matter worse in future.

Alan Whitehead: My hon. Friend is tempting me into an entirely different debate, in which there are very interesting considerations relating not least to a new report on the renewable valuation around our coasts and on our land and how we might be able to use those renewables for our long-term, as well as our shorter-term, future energy supply. I suspect, however, that if I were to address that topic, you might suggest that I have strayed rather far from the issues we are debating today, on which I do want to concentrate, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
	Energy efficiency is a crucial component of our future energy landscape. I am pleased that the energy efficiency ambitions that the new Government have set out continue those proposed, and acted upon, by the previous Government. I recognise that the new ministerial team has strong personal commitments to these issues, and therefore energy efficiency has a bright start in terms of ambition and of understanding that this area is crucial. After all, 40% of our energy is consumed in buildings and that represents 40% of our carbon emissions. About 80% of household energy goes on heating our homes and water, and that alone represents some 13% of the UK's greenhouse gas emissions. Therefore, getting a serious grip on energy efficiency in our homes and commercial and industrial buildings offers potentially enormous, and relatively early, rewards in respect of our overall position on carbon emissions and energy consumption.
	However, we as a country face this situation from a poor position historically. It is true that the previous Government made enormous strides in improving energy efficiency, particularly of public sector homes, and homes provided by registered social landlords. The Committee on Climate Change report that was published today conspicuously states that its indicators for activity on loft insulation, cavity wall insulation and energy efficiency in homes were met during the last year of the previous Labour Government. Considerable progress has been made, but our private sector homes remain energy-inefficient. The average standard assessment procedure rating in private sector homes is 49, which is a long way from level that we ought to aim for if we are to have a reasonable expectation that homes will be relatively energy-efficient and will have a low output of waste and energy emissions as far as the activities of the people who live in them are concerned.
	We can all agree that this House has substantial energy-efficiency ambitions, that there is urgent action to be undertaken and that a number of programmes are in process and a number of ambitious new programmes, some of which we have heard about this afternoon, could get under way to address those issues. We need to examine whether the ambitions are being met, whether we have the ability to make those changes in practice and whether other things might be done to ensure that the ambitions are realised.
	As a small indicator of the difference between ambitions and realisation I shall discuss the new part L of the building regulations, which were published recently. I had anticipated that it would contain new guidelines on the energy efficiency of circulation pumps in central heating. If, as was suggested during consultation by the previous Government, the regulations had mandated new and very energy-efficient circulation pumps, we could have saved as much as 2% of the electricity consumption in households-that could have been done by that measure alone. However, the new regulations state that it is perfectly okay to have circulation pumps that are A to G rated, not the A to C rated that had been anticipated. That shows an immediate difference between ambition and practice. I sincerely hope that the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), who has been inviting various other people to come to see him about various issues, will invite me in the very near future to a round-table meeting on circulation pumps and why they should be more energy-efficient. I am sure that he will find time in his busy diary to have a substantial round-table meeting on that pressing issue. I cite that issue as a small example to show that one needs to keep one's eye closely on the difference between the reality of achievement and the ambition that one has when one puts forward new plans.
	The plan that has been the centrepiece of this afternoon's discussion is the green deal. I feel like someone who is being told that a great new concerto is coming out, that it is about to be performed and that when people turn up to the concert hall they will find that it is terrific, but who has not been told whether it is by Mozart or Salieri. I presume that when we get to the concert hall we will find out whether the green deal is as good as we are led to believe. On the surface, a green deal that takes away the idea of an up-front loan and places the onus on the long-term consequences of the bills of those household consumers, their descendants or the next people who come along to the house appears to represent a positive way forward. We must recognise that that has limitations. Just as the pay-as-you-save scheme implemented by the previous Government had its limitations, this green deal also has potential substantial limitations.

Gregory Barker: This is a very important point. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We do not for a minute expect the green deal to be able to cover the whole gamut of energy-efficiency installations. I think I said in my opening speech that there will be hard-to-treat properties and that some of the most vulnerable fuel-poor will not be covered sufficiently by the green deal pay-as-you-save model. That is where we will look to restructure completely and focus even more the ongoing long-term energy supplier obligation.

Alan Whitehead: I thank the Minister for that clarification. He anticipates, to a little extent, some of the things that I was going to say about the consequences of the green deal and the issues that surround it, such as the problems of hard-to-treat homes, which we need to take seriously if we are to make progress as far as energy efficiency is concerned.
	Let us be clear: the green deal will concern itself primarily with owner-occupied houses in the private sector where there is a deal on hand. I stand to be corrected, but it seems to me that there is substantial work to be done as far as the social housing sector, the public housing sector and, indeed, hard-to-treat properties are concerned.

Gregory Barker: The beauty of the green deal as conceived and as we intend to implement it is that it applies to all sectors of housing. It is most applicable to the area that has been hardest to treat and in which there has been least progress in the past-that is, the private rented sector. It will finally cut through that Gordian knot as landlords will not have to pay the up-front costs for benefits that will accrue to their tenants. There will now be a real incentive and no financial disincentive for landlords to upgrade their properties and increase the quality of life of their tenants while decreasing their energy bills. That will be a real bonus.

Alan Whitehead: Again, I thank the Minister for that clarification. The beauty of the concert that we are about to hear is being talked up again. However, the questions of hard-to-treat properties, rented properties, landlords and partnerships are all issues that we must consider very carefully in deciding how the green deal and other elements will work best together as far as energy efficiency is concerned.
	We have heard mention this afternoon, for example, of the partnership between local authorities, third sector organisations and consumers in the comprehensive redevelopment of energy-efficiency retrofitting of homes. We have heard about the very good example of Kirklees borough council. Interestingly, the example of Kirklees was based on the injection by Kirklees of £10 million into the process in partnership with other local authorities.
	In that context, thinking, among other things, about the debate that we had in this House yesterday on local government financing and local government cuts, I ask a question of myself. As a result of the cuts being handed out to local authorities, will there be local authorities that have £10 million to invest in future partnership arrangements? That will be very important in getting progress on the future arrangements represented at present by the community energy saving programme as far as whole-area developments in local authority areas are concerned. Will the enfeeblement of local authorities' ability to undertake such new initiatives be such that we will have eliminated one of the partners in that process in the not-too-distant future?
	I have a small point to make regarding landlords. The changes in housing benefit that are coming about might cause landlords at least to question whether to invest in their properties given the return that they might get in rent, so there are side effects, in relation to other policy decisions, that might have an impact on ambitions for the green deal.
	One important issue that I have mentioned is whether the green deal simply includes passive insulation and energy-efficiency measures such as loft insulation and cavity wall insulation. Does it go beyond that to include householders' ability to generate their own energy and therefore to operate much more efficiently in terms of net emissions? In the code for sustainable homes, the target for 2016, in terms of new build housing, will include accession to a level 6 arrangement, but that could not be adhered to without some form of microgeneration power production being built into those homes when the zero-carbon target is agreed.
	The Minister is right to say that we should not substitute microgeneration for energy-efficiency measures, as they are consequent on each other. However, in a real programme for developing energy efficiency in homes over the medium term, microgeneration has to be seen as very important within any efficiency drive in those homes. If we simply eliminate microgeneration from the process, we will put back for a considerable time the possibility of microgeneration following on from those energy-efficiency arrangements.
	It was interesting to see nothing in the Budget for Warm Front. I assume that, in the vision put forward by the Government, it will effectively be subsumed into the green deal because it apparently has very wide effects. If Warm Front is simply collapsed within a few years' time, the works that have been undertaken under Warm Front, which include the possibility of putting microgeneration devices into homes, will be lost and a group of hard-to-reach consumers who might not be particularly advantaged by the green deal will also be lost in the process.

Gregory Barker: On Warm Front, let me assure the hon. Gentleman that more than £300 million is available for a programme of work through this year and the winter to March 2011. That stands, and no long-term decisions have yet been made about Warm Front. As I have said, we recognise that there will always be a need for special arrangements for the most vulnerable people and hard-to-treat homes, and that we cannot just depend on pay-as-you-save schemes. Obviously, Warm Front will be subject to the comprehensive spending review this autumn, as all other Government programmes will be.

Alan Whitehead: I thank the Minister for that further clarification, but his comments support my feeling that there is no clear understanding of what will happen to Warm Front after the current period of investment in that programme expires. Similarly-this relates particularly to my points about the need to include microgeneration in the aim of improving general household energy efficiency over the medium to long term-there seems to have been no clarification regarding the future of the renewable heat incentive. If, for whatever reason, the renewable heat incentive is abandoned-a process that I suspect is under way at the moment-the ability of homes to install equipment vital for long-term energy efficiency, such as solar thermal devices, or ground source or air source heat pumps, will be severely undermined.
	The Minister has said that households that enter a deal, whether it is loan-based or part of a pay-as-you-save arrangement, will have to pay the money back when the investment period comes to an end. The RHI is therefore absolutely essential, and I fear for the sector's future if it is abandoned or undermined.

Gregory Barker: I am not in a position to make a statement about the RHI today, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that we are committed to an ambitious renewable heat agenda. We hope to make an announcement as soon as possible.

Alan Whitehead: I thank the Minister for that intervention, and for promoting me to the Privy Council. I look forward to that announcement, and I sincerely hope that my concerns about the RHI are misplaced. It is essential that the initiative goes ahead next year, so that it can underpin the revolution that is taking place in the development of microgenerated heat.
	The Minister also said that it will cost something like £10,000, at the very least, to treat each hard-to-treat property. Inevitably, therefore, such properties, whatever they are like, will be outside the green new deal. It is essential that programmes are brought in alongside the green deal at an early stage, to ensure that the 6 to 7 million homes in the hard-to-treat category get the energy-efficiency uprating that they need.
	The other point that I want to emphasise is that energy efficiency is not just about conserving the energy that we use in domestic properties. We have heard already this afternoon about the great gains that can be made by increasing energy efficiency in commercial and industrial properties, but we also have to look at the enormously inefficient way that we produce our energy at the moment. By the time that a single kilowatt comes out of a conventional electricity power station, 55% cent. of the energy in the fuel used to produce it has been lost. A further 15% of the energy in the original source is lost in transmission, and a further 10% is lost through the inefficiency of household equipment. In a very real sense, therefore, the so-called "10% light bulb" is real, and that is because, by the time we switch a light on, we have squandered 90% of the energy that we could have used to power the bulb.
	For that reason, arrangements such as district heating and combined heat and power are absolutely vital if we are to make progress in using energy in the best way that we can. There is a huge capacity for CHP district heating schemes in UK cities. For example, Aberdeen Heat & Power Ltd has shown how that can be done, and similar results can be seen in Southampton and Birmingham. We need to take the role of CHP very seriously, either at the micro level-my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) spoke about that earlier in connection with home energy improvements-or through district heating schemes. Finally, industrial companies that have their own heat networks can have their existing boilers replaced with CHP plants. Such commercial schemes can result in enormous gains in energy efficiency. Local authorities were given powers and resources to develop district heating schemes in the paper on home heating and energy supplies put forward by the previous Government. It would be encouraging if the powers envisaged under that programme were preserved and enhanced by this new Government.
	We should not neglect the role that energy efficiency plays in combating fuel poverty. If all homes had a standard assessment procedure rating of, say, above 65, it is unlikely that much fuel poverty would exist in this country, simply because it would be difficult for households to spend more than 10% of their income on fuel. It is predicted that the target of eradicating fuel poverty under the terms of the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000 will be missed by a large margin, and the main reason for that is that as fuel prices rise, more people are placed in fuel poverty. As we have already discussed this afternoon, enormous rises in fuel costs have blown off course some very creditable efforts to combat fuel poverty, not least efforts that target the homes of the fuel-poor to make them more energy-efficient.
	For every 1% rise in fuel prices, 40,000 people are placed in fuel poverty, so we need to be aware of the obligations being placed on energy companies and the effect that they have on additional prices. If, as a result of the green deal and other new arrangements, we place additional obligations on energy companies and they pass on the effects of those obligations to their customers, we will find not only price rises but many more people going into fuel poverty as those new schemes unfold. There are already obligations on energy companies relating to carbon capture and storage, the carbon emissions reduction target, the community energy saving programme, and the smart meter roll-out. I imagine that the acceleration of that roll-out, which was recently announced by the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), will place additional obligations on companies, as they will have to underwrite that roll-out.
	Either those additional obligations should be underwritten with public money to limit their effect on fuel prices, or energy companies need to be prevented from passing on the effect of the obligation to the customer. In that context, we need to look at the role of Ofgem. Should it be translated into a champion of escape from fuel poverty and an agent of a rapid rise in energy efficiency, or should it simply pass on the price of those changes to customers? That is worth examination.
	I applaud the idea that we need to move rapidly on energy efficiency. If the green deal is as good as its proponents suggest, I will applaud it taking forward from the previous Government ways to build energy efficiency into how households work. However, we need to look at the detail very carefully to ensure that, this time, we get it absolutely right, because we have only a very short time in which to do so.

Tobias Ellwood: "Vote blue, go green" was one of our lasting slogans from the general election, so I welcome the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), to his Front-Bench position. I am pleased that we are having a debate on energy efficiency so early in the calendar, as the subject is so important in this day and age.
	Before I go any further, I congratulate my hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Lorraine Fullbrook), on their astounding maiden speeches. My hon. Friend, and close friend, the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), spoke passionately about the beauty of Dorset. As we in Bournemouth are sort of part of Dorset, although we have a unitary authority, I fully concur with him on that, and I wish him well in hosting the Olympics events that are to be held in that neck of the woods. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), who spoke passionately about her constituency. She represents the Liberal Democrats, and ousted our good friend David Heathcoat-Amory. It is sad to see him go, but I must welcome her, because we are now all friends in this coalition.
	As we are the custodians of the environment, such debates are important. We would like to think that the speeches that we make here will stand the test of time, but in fact, although it is horrible to think it, they may be forgotten in the long term. What will not be forgotten are the actions that we take to protect the environment for future generations. That is why I am pleased to participate in the debate.
	When we look at what is happening in the Gulf of Mexico, we can see how fragile our environment is. If we do not take care of it we ruin it, not only for our own generation but for future generations, and they will not thank us.

Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman mentions the Gulf of Mexico. Does he accept that when the Government talk about cutting regulation, that is exactly the type of disaster that could come about, and must not be allowed to happen?

Tobias Ellwood: The hon. Gentleman makes his point, but there is a distinction between the regulations that are expected to be adhered to during drilling in deep sea conditions using state of the art technology, and the bureaucracy and red tape that has stifled British business and which is quite separate from the safety regulations out at sea.
	I had the pleasure of growing up in a number of countries, but mostly in Vienna, in Austria. It was interesting that in the 1980s measures such as insulation for new buildings, double glazing, and recycling using different wheelie bins were the norm there, yet it was only three years ago that such things were introduced in Bournemouth and the rest of the country, when our local authorities began to recognise the importance of recycling, energy saving and looking after our environment. As a nation, we are catching up with countries in Europe late in the day. That is why it is so critical for us to move forward on energy efficiency.
	To me, the three principal elements of energy efficiency are how we supply and store energy, how efficiently we use that energy, and the lifestyle choices that we make by shifting away from energy-dependent activities-for example, how we use energy for heating, transport and electricity. I welcome some of the initiatives proposed in the coalition document, such as the establishment of a smart grid and the roll-out of smart meters.
	It seems wrong that as we have looked to provide more efficient ways of charging for electricity, the people who have been punished most are the very poor, because of the charging systems and the meter systems, which have taken so long to provide them with the same benefits and deals that were available online to those of us who were able to use credit cards and standing orders.
	I welcome the establishment of feed-in tariff systems for electricity. It makes sense that those who generate their own electricity can pump back any surplus electricity into the national grid and be paid for it. The creation of a green investment bank and home energy improvements paid for with the savings from lower energy bills provide an incentive to change attitudes and lifestyles.
	I also welcome measures to encourage marine energy. I recently visited Felixstowe and saw some of the initiatives taken there and in other parts of Britain. It is sad that with one of the longest shorelines in the world, we have still failed to harness marine capability. We are starting to do that, placing wind turbines at sea. As a note specifically to Bournemouth, I visited Blackpool not long ago-

Mark Tami: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Tobias Ellwood: After I have made the point. I visited Blackpool recently and saw the wind turbines out at sea. I asked whether there was any anger or concern about them as the planning applications were going through. Yes of course there were, at that point. But was anybody complaining about them now? Not at all. The message that I would give to the people in and around Bournemouth and Dorset is: please accept the proposals for our area. The turbines will not disturb the view as much as people think. If they are concerned about that, they should pop up to Blackpool and see what is going on there. The turbines can hardly be seen in the distance.
	The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) is bobbing up and down in his seat. I cannot but give way to him.

Mark Tami: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Will he speak to some in his own party in north Wales who not only actively campaigned against offshore wind turbines, but are still campaigning against them? Perhaps they have just not got the message that he clearly has.

Tobias Ellwood: That is all the more reason to make passionate speeches to ensure that everyone in Britain understands and grasps the importance of harnessing this free energy.
	I was saddened to see the outcome of the Amsterdam talks on climate change. I hoped that with the election of President Obama, the United States would show more involved leadership in this area. I certainly hope that in November in Cancun we will see a more convincing legal binding agreement, which will encourage countries to take climate change more seriously.
	The issue of supply and storage came up when we debated carbon capture and storage during our consideration of the Energy Act 2010, on which the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) was the lead Minister. I was concerned last winter, as many in Britain were, at how close the lights came to going out. We must never again reach the position where we could run out of energy in a matter of days.

Joan Ruddock: indicated dissent.

Tobias Ellwood: I knew that that would provoke a response from the hon. Lady. We had about six days' supply left, and if the supply chain had failed, lights would have gone out. Instructions had gone out to businesses to alert them to the fact that their contract meant that their energy supply would be cut.

Joan Ruddock: rose-

Tobias Ellwood: I thought that that would prompt a reaction.

Joan Ruddock: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has had to provoke me. The fact is that the companies that were given the notices had entered into interruptible contracts, for which the price is lower because they are asked at times to lower their consumption of electricity. That is a reasonable thing to do. They chose to have the contracts. No one forced those contracts on them, and at no time were we in danger of the lights going out.

Tobias Ellwood: I am having flashbacks here. I recall the hon. Lady making the same point during the debate. The point is that I never want to be in that position again, and to see contracts being threatened in this way. She may argue that those were the contracts that had been signed, but we as a nation do not want to be in a position whereby any business is threatened in that way.
	The more immediate problem has been the fact that we are now a net importer of oil, gas and coal. The Government spent 13 years watching the dials on all those sources go down towards empty.

Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for a second bite of the cherry. He mentions that we now import coal. Perhaps he has forgotten who it was who closed all the coal mines in our country.

Tobias Ellwood: Then we have to ask whether we are a charity to keep the unions going, or are we- [ Interruption. ] Opposition Members chortle; no doubt they are all signed-up members of some union that makes sure that they look after their comrades. The point is that the coal mines were inefficient. We could not keep them open. Today's debate is about energy efficiency-having efficient means of getting energy. Using those coal mines when they were running out was inefficient, which is why they were closed. My point today is that one third of our coal is imported from Russia, of all places. That is not a secure place to import from, and it is certainly not clean coal.

Damian Collins: My hon. Friend makes the point that sources of energy change. Some sources become exhausted, be they coal, or oil and gas from the North sea. Does he share my concern that the previous Government waited far too long to consider serious investment and planning for new forms of power generation, and that we should have made preparations for those a decade ago?

Tobias Ellwood: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Labour party is now in denial on this front. I will probably provoke another reaction, but to return to the coal point-yes, the coal mines were inefficient, but there are now more efficient ways of extracting coal, so some coal mines are being reopened because it is now economically viable to produce the coal.

Chris Williamson: Would the hon. Gentleman care to comment on the fact that while his predecessors were smashing the mining industry, the National Union of Mineworkers pointed out that we had more than 300 years of coal reserves under the ground, and were arguing for the very clean-coal technology that the hon. Gentleman now seems to be espousing?

Tobias Ellwood: Those mining strikes, which almost brought Britain to a halt, took place when I was in shorts at school, so I cannot be blamed for that. I agree that we want clean efficient methods, and that is why we did not vote against the Bill on clean coal technology. It fell short, because the provisions on carbon capture and storage should have included gas, but that was ignored.

Chris Williamson: rose-

Tobias Ellwood: Let us have somebody else.

Mark Tami: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does he not accept that gas and coal are imported because the market says that that is cheaper? Unless he is prepared to accept that there are times when we have to intervene in the market to stabilise things and give industry and energy sources in this country a chance, he will never alter the situation, particularly in the short term.

Tobias Ellwood: I do not disagree. My point is about the efficiency and security of supply, and not until very late in Labour's tenure did they work out, "My gosh, we need to get some interconnectors here that actually work, so that we aren't reliant on just one." That is what led to the danger of our running out of gas supplies. I understand that the Government are now looking at security of supply, and at long-term contracts that will negate the problems that we faced last winter, when we came very close to some of the lights being switched off. Carbon capture and storage is important, and I am still upset that we did not have a chance to amend that Bill. We tabled amendments to include gas as well as coal.
	The previous Government oversaw the demise of another area, our fleet of nuclear power stations-again, until our energy supply was threatened. It took 20 years to get a spark out of Dungeness; we cannot build those things overnight. Therefore, if we are to plan for the future, we cannot live in denial: we cannot live without nuclear power. My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) spoke passionately about the importance of nuclear power, and although it is an asset that none of us likes, we are forced into that position simply because of the absence of other sources of power.

Caroline Lucas: The hon. Gentleman makes a statement in favour of nuclear power, but it is not based on the facts. Climate change scientists tell us that we need to get our emissions down within the next 10 years if we are to have any chance of avoiding the worst of climate change. The hon. Gentleman just mentioned the time that it takes to get nuclear generation up and running, and that means that we are now outside the critical investment time frame, and there is a real danger that if we put the money into nuclear power we will not put it into energy efficiency, renewable energies or decentralised energy, all of which have a much better chance than nuclear power has of reducing our emissions.

Tobias Ellwood: I actually agree with the hon. Lady, whom I very much welcome to the Chamber. She will add an awful lot to these, and indeed other, debates. The Labour Government left nuclear power very late, but what she said does not mean that we should not build nuclear power stations. I guess that she is not in favour of nuclear power, and I am reluctant, too, but she might agree that we should invest in and study nuclear fusion, rather than nuclear fission, because nuclear fusion is the utopia that we have been looking for. Everyone says, "Oh, it will happen 25 years from now," but they were saying that 25 years ago. If we fully grasped that technology, we would not need the nasty side of nuclear fission, which leaves all the radioactive mess for future generations. Nuclear fusion is very much the way forward.

Nia Griffith: Will the hon. Gentleman please list all the investment in power stations between 1979 and 1997? He will find that his list is extremely short.

Tobias Ellwood: Where do we go with that? Do we continue going back in time and blaming previous Governments? In the first debate on the Budget a week ago, I heard Members say that Maggie Thatcher was responsible for everything. How many generations do we want to go back? We are where are today, and I am concerned that when it comes to looking after our energy needs, we have had 10 years almost in abeyance, so I seek guidance from the Government to ensure that we will never be in this position again.

Damian Collins: In his earlier remarks about nuclear power, my hon. Friend was kind enough to mention Dungeness power station, which is in my constituency. On the points made by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), I should say that the site could be brought online quickly-before 2020, it is believed. The current power station was opened under the last Conservative Government. Does my hon. Friend agree that such is the urgency and national priority that one of the great considerations for new nuclear power should be the location of sites in strategic areas of energy need and the speed with which they can be developed?

Tobias Ellwood: My hon. Friend makes a powerful argument. The people best educated about these issues are those with nuclear power stations in their constituencies. They already understand what is going on; they realise the benefits and what safety mechanisms are in place, and would embrace further such technology.
	Other forms of technology can be built much faster-they are almost "off the shelf". The Canadians are using the CANDU systems, which are very simple and probably have the safest record in the world. They would be easy to build. The trouble in the UK is the planning process, which takes so long before the first bolt can be put in or concrete floor laid down. I am glad that one point of the coalition agreement has been to expedite the planning process to make sure that, yes, we take on board consultation and views, but that once the decision is made, we get on with it.

Mark Tami: The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change seems totally opposed to nuclear power and has said so on a number of occasions. Is he the suitable person to drive this change through?

Tobias Ellwood: That-that is- [Laughter.] That is a moot point, but it is on the record.
	I am trying to get on to the issue of nuclear fusion versus nuclear fission, and I am sure that the Secretary of State would agree with the position on that.

Caroline Lucas: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Tobias Ellwood: I cannot resist.

Caroline Lucas: I cannot resist either. I have two points to make. First, Dungeness is built on a floodplain; it is a bit short-sighted to put lots of nuclear power in the middle of a floodplain, given climate change.
	Secondly, if we are still to hold out this great hope that some new nuclear technology will come along, that, again, will mean that resources and research will go into that instead of into the tried and tested technologies that we know will work. We have been talking about energy efficiency. If we rolled out a free programme of energy efficiency to every household in the country, that would create hundreds of thousands of jobs and get us out of recession. It would also get our emissions down much more quickly and cheaply than going down the nuclear route.

Tobias Ellwood: The hon. Lady is new to the House and I do not wish to be disparaging about what she has just said. But she seems to be saying that the issue is either/or, black or white. I am saying that it is not like that, and that we must invest extra research on an international basis. Work is being done, including in the United States, but it is not enough.
	The hon. Lady is absolutely right that we must push for more efficiencies-in fact, that is what half today's debate is about. How can the home be made more efficient? How can we reduce our emissions and the amount of energy that we use? All those things are important. Is she suggesting that we should park any further advances or research on the idea of nuclear fusion? That is absolutely wrong.

Caroline Lucas: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; I appreciate that he is trying to make progress.
	I am saying, very realistically, that there is a finite pot of money, which is even smaller as a result of the cuts that the hon. Gentleman's Government are about to make. The idea that that money can be put everywhere at the same time comes from cloud cuckoo land. We need to decide where the money can be best and most effectively spent; scattering it around the place is not the answer. If we were to implement a major programme of energy efficiency, including renewable and decentralised energy, that would be tried and tested and offer a much better bang for the buck than investing in the chance that we might some day come across a nuclear technology that is safer than what we have now.

Tobias Ellwood: On that I stop agreeing with the hon. Lady. We are not talking about a technology that may or may not work. We know that it can work; it is a matter of harnessing it. Experiments have already been done. To park the issue, or put it on the back burner-that is probably the wrong phrase-would be wrong. If we can harness the technology we can roll it out, not only in Britain but in other countries, particularly developing countries that are thinking of using nuclear fission. We could say to Iran, "Here is nuclear fusion." An atomic bomb cannot be made out of a nuclear fusion reactor. This therefore makes sense in the long term, and generations will thank us for it. Given the position we are in, I am afraid that we cannot survive over the next 20 years without investing, reluctantly though it will be, in nuclear power. I think that there is agreement on that in all parts of the House.
	Let me spend a few moments explaining why nuclear fusion is so important and useful. It is the fusion of hydrogen atoms to form helium, and an awful lot of energy. It is a safe process whereby there are no nasty by-products. Of course, hydrogen is found in water, so fusion power is a potentially limitless source of energy. In fact, it is recognised that in 100 years' time nuclear fission will be in the past, and everything will be powered by nuclear fusion. That may sound scatty, too advanced or too romantic, but it is the case. However, I am afraid that we will slow down that harnessing of power unless we are able to ensure that we join with other countries to guarantee that money is not wasted or taken away to be spent on other important related products, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) passionately said.
	The main focus of my speech is not nuclear fusion or carbon capture and storage, but the subject of my intervention at the beginning of the debate. It is about a very simple way of reducing carbon emissions, saving the Government money, and creating a feel-good factor-that is, moving our clocks one hour forward.

Thomas Docherty: rose-

Tobias Ellwood: If the hon. Gentleman could hold on for a second and let me make a bit of progress, I will be delighted to give way. I have not even begun the argument yet-I have only announced the subject matter-and he is already having a pop.
	Let me take hon. Members back to last March and how people felt on the day before the clocks changed and on the day after. There is a natural feel-good factor for people when that lighter evening comes in, but it goes beyond that: there is also a financial benefit and an effect on the environment. Electricity prices would go down because we would be naturally aligning the time spent at our workplace during the day with the time when the sun, the last form of free energy, is in the sky. There is a natural recognition of how we could better use that time. When the sun is in the sky and we are all in bed, that is wasted energy.
	Before I make further progress, I will give way to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), as I promised.

Thomas Docherty: Let me gently point out to the hon. Gentleman that slightly north of Bournemouth there is great opposition to the idea of changing the clock. In Scotland and elsewhere, there are serious and genuine safety concerns about what that would mean. His own colleagues in Government have made it absolutely clear that they will not support that proposal for that very reason.

Tobias Ellwood: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's final point, as I spent much of last year doing a study on this very subject. The point he raises about the far north of England and Scotland is relevant, however, and I will come to it in due course, when, no doubt, he will want to jump up and have another go.
	According to Cambridge university, this change to our clocks would mean that electricity prices for the whole of the United Kingdom would reduce by about 5%. Moreover, the UK's carbon footprint would be reduced by about 500,000 tonnes of CO2. People should wake up and see that that figure is relevant. That was not even a consideration in the 1970s, when, as hon. Members might recall, there was a three-year pilot project to test this idea; some people enjoyed it, and others did not. It turned out that the voices who spoke most strongly against it were those of the farmers-and rightly, because the business that they operated meant that they had to make best use of the daylight, and it conflicted with their routine. However, the National Farmers Union, and indeed NFU Scotland, no longer object to the idea. When NFU Scotland is asked if it is the first thing it wants, of course it says no-it is not on its agenda at all-but it has withdrawn its objections to it, and that makes sense, because farming is now a 24-hour industry.
	The experiment was very positive, and it saw a reduction in fatalities and injuries across the UK. You might be interested to learn, Mr Deputy Speaker, however, that the reason why the experiment was flipped back was that farmers told all the Conservative MPs who were in power at the time that they would be denied the poster sites that are so important during a general election were it to continue. That was why they said, "Okay, fine, we will get rid of this". However, reading the  Hansard makes it clear that the argument for dropping it was weak.
	I have mentioned the reduction in the UK's carbon footprint, but there would also be an important boost to British tourism, an industry that Parliament almost neglects. It is our fifth-biggest industry and brings in more than £90 billion a year. According to the Tourism Alliance, daylight saving would boost the industry by about £2 billion, which is worth considering. We are the sixth most visited place in the world, and if we can find other means to encourage people to come here and take advantage of British tourist attractions, particularly those outdoors, it is worth looking into.
	Safer roads, which I believe have been mentioned, are another aspect of daylight saving. As I have said, when the experiment last took place there was a reduction in deaths. I agree that more deaths took place in the morning, but the net change was a decrease. That was because in the morning, people tend to make a journey from A to B, with A being their home and B being somewhere they know, such as work or school. In the evenings they tend to make a journey from A to C, with C being somewhere they have not been before. That means that they are not so familiar with the roads, which leads to accidents. Shifting the time so that it is lighter in the evenings rather than the mornings reduces the number of accidents that take place.

Nigel Evans: Order. May I remind the hon. Gentleman that the debate is about energy efficiency, not road deaths, important though that matter is?

Tobias Ellwood: I will take your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker, and focus on how daylight saving is very energy-efficient. I will not cover the reduction in crime or the increase in international trade that it would bring, although they are important, or health and well-being, although they are also worth considering.
	It is worth my mentioning Scotland, though, and the possible efficiency savings there. With daylight saving, in the Glasgow-Edinburgh conurbation there would be 83 more daylight hours before 4 pm and 5 pm, 120 more between 4 pm and 6 pm and 165 more between 4 pm and 7 pm. The numbers would be larger for the rest of the UK. It is a very simple move that would not cost the Government a penny to implement, other than to put the necessary legislation through. It would align us with our European colleagues, which would mean that we would become more efficient from a business perspective as well, so I recommend it.
	I understand that there is finally a private Member's Bill on the matter, so I am the warm-up act for my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), who I understand will introduce Second Reading on-

Rebecca Harris: On 3 December.

Tobias Ellwood: I thank my hon. Friend. I hope that hon. Members, convinced by what I have just said, will come on that Friday to support the Bill.

Thomas Docherty: I begin by congratulating all Members who have made their maiden speeches today. They have been fantastic, and after hearing some of them, including that of my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon), I suspect that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury could soon simply scrap all the tourist boards in this country, such is the eloquence of the case that hon. Members have made for their constituencies.
	This has been a fantastic debate. There has been some good knockabout, but hon. Members have also made some serious points. I am slightly curious when I hear coalition Members talk about fuel poverty and the fact that they will square the circle by voting to freeze child benefit and cut housing benefit. We have not really teased out exactly how that will tackle fuel poverty.
	I should like to put the subject of energy efficiency into the context of the wider energy debate. As part of my leisure reading I often have a glance at DUKES-the digest of UK energy statistics-a thoroughly interesting document that I get from the Department's website. I had a glance at it this morning and it contains some interesting statistics about our consumption as a nation over the past 40 years-since 1970. We have seen a 60% increase in the amount of electricity we consume as a nation. However, manufacturing and industrial consumption has remained steady at some 14,000 GWh, and it has largely been domestic consumption that has driven up the figures, plus some transportation. One thing that brings a wry smile to my face is hon. Members talking of the need for more railways and electric cars. Those are admirable suggestions, and I support them, but it is never explained where we will get the energy to power those new electric trains and cars.
	If we compare our consumption statistics with our supply statistics, the result is worrying. At its peak in 1998, the nuclear industry provided approximately 90,000 GWh. In 2008, the latest year for which figures are available, that had fallen to 48,000 GWh, although it has risen again slightly since then. At the same time, many of our coal-powered stations are coming to the end of their lives. By the end of the coming decade, all our Magnox nuclear power stations will have closed, as will almost all of the advanced gas-cooled reactor nuclear power stations and many of our coal-powered stations-either because of new European regulations on carbon emissions, which both sides of the House would support, or because they have simply come to the end of their lives. I suggest that we need to understand that, although the aim of being more efficient in our energy consumption is laudable, we face a massive energy gap that needs to be addressed. We have seen some consensus break out this afternoon on how we can achieve that.
	I have a constituency interest in power generation, in Longannet power station-one of the two sites bidding for the Minister's money under the carbon capture and storage scheme. I notice that his colleague, when asked about carbon capture, gave us some warm words about the coalition's general support for it, but-I assume that it was an oversight on his part-did not give a guarantee that DECC will meet the previous Government's target of a decision by October. I would be delighted if the Minister could give the House that guarantee when he winds up.
	The hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) is unfortunately no longer in her place, but she made an excellent maiden speech. I suggest to her that, if we are to have a surge in the volume of renewables, especially those that come from offshore and elsewhere, we cannot simply say that we do not want improvements to the national grid. I suggest that the Liberal Democrats are in their usual situation of saying one thing in the House and doing something else outside. I look forward to seeing how the hon. Lady squares that circle with her constituents.
	The wider issue is how we close the gap between our desire for a low carbon British economy and our need for energy. I suggest that we will do that through three forms of generation. I accept the role of renewables, although I am on the record as being slightly more sceptical than some of my colleagues about the size and scale of that. For example, biomass, which was seen until recently as the great white hope of renewable energy, has now, as I am sure my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) knows, run into serious difficulties with how quickly it is gobbling up forestry in the UK. It is now suggested that several schemes in Scotland proposed by Forth Ports will have to import wood from around the world.

Barry Gardiner: I would be delighted to expand on the question of imported biomass. It can play no sensible role in a model of energy efficiency; the transportation costs make it ludicrous to think we are being energy efficient in doing so. However, there are 4 million tonnes of biomass within not the forests but simply the under-managed broadleaf woodlands in England alone. That could be used to generate twice the amount of energy-

Lindsay Hoyle: Order.

Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who, it is fair to say, is an expert on this issue. He is entirely right that biomass has a role to play, but it must be UK-produced fuel, and he is right to give examples. Stevens Croft in Dumfriesshire has been doing an excellent job of taking cast-off from the timber industry. That is an excellent example. As I mentioned, however, we should not be importing fuel from Europe or further afield.

Guy Opperman: On the renewable obligations certificate in relation to biomass, the effect of the subsidy introduced by the previous Government is that a variety of companies are effectively being underwritten for the work they are doing. Consequently, the taxpayer is paying for energy companies to do biomass. That cannot be right. Does the hon. Gentleman not agree?

Thomas Docherty: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his thoughtful intervention, but I do not agree with him. I believe that Government have an important role to play in supporting the market, although I suspect that he does not see it that way. One reason why the gap is going to grow over the next few years is that the Conservative Members and their predecessors over-liberalised the market, and there was no incentive for companies to make long-term financial commitments to building new generating sources, whether nuclear, coal, gas or other base load suppliers. Only through Government support will that go ahead; so I think the Government should play an important role in the marketplace.
	There are, however, some flaws in how the market works, and I want to touch on one that concerns my constituency and other parts of Scotland: the way in which the transmission charges work. Obviously, if we have a vast expansion of offshore renewables, it will almost certainly be around the Scottish coastline. If we are to build a new carbon capture and storage plant in my constituency, and if we are to have these nuclear power stations, the new plants will be penalised under the current transmission charges scheme. I hope therefore that the Minister will find room in his diary to meet me and other colleagues to consider how we can build a cross-party consensus on making it a more equitable system, while retaining the principle that those who use the grid pay a sum of money.
	I was slightly astonished by the comments of the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) about coal mining. I gently point out to him that, as my hon. Friends have said, there are 300 years of reserves within our borders. However, that too will require Government support, which the Government will have to consider, because if we are to have energy sources that are free from carbon emissions at generation, we need to have that mix.

Tobias Ellwood: I am trying to recall what I said, but I went on a bit and I am not sure that I remember everything, but I do not recall saying that I do not support coal mining in the UK. I sat on the Committee that debated the Energy Bill, which dealt with carbon capture and storage. We had extra thoughts, tabling about 90 amendments-I am thinking about my hon. Friend the Minister-and, although not a single one was accepted, we did not vote against the Bill, because we very much support coal mining in the UK. However, it has to be clean. My concern was that we are importing one third of our coal from Russia-coal that is not clean and certainly not from a secure source of supply.

Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for clarifying his position, but his Ministers will have to come up with some cash to reopen those mines. It is simply not feasible for, say, Scottish Coal to go back in and take on a huge financial risk without some Government underwriting. I would agree that there are some things that it is best for the Government to stay out of, but our major utilities are not one of those.

Guy Opperman: The hon. Gentleman seems to be indicating that without Government intervention there will be no further coal mining, but that cannot be right. For example, there are open-cast mines aplenty throughout Northumberland and my constituency, but all that mining is done without any Government support whatever.

Thomas Docherty: Just so that we are absolutely clear, we are talking about deep coal mining. That is where vast reserves lie. Without going into the techie details, the point is that quite a lot of the coal from open-cast mining is not suitable for burning in our power stations without doing serious work to it.  [ Interruption. ] The hon. Gentleman can shake his head all he wants, but the reality is that in mining communities we are familiar with the different types of coal.
	The Government have a vital role to play in providing homes and businesses with secure, safe electricity. I suspect that one of the great tensions to emerge in the coalition will focus not just on the vexed question of nuclear fission, but on the role of state intervention. I would be curious to discover to what extent the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg)-the Deputy Prime Minister-bought into the idea of yanking £60 million away from Forgemasters, which seems to be a ludicrous and short-term decision.

Tobias Ellwood: We hear almost daily about this money that was supposed to go to places such as Sheffield Forgemasters, but it did not exist. We are talking about election sweeteners, peddled by Labour just before the general election and designed to win seats. There was no money in the till and the previous Government knew it. Their promises could not be kept; they were just trying to win seats. So please let us stop peddling this myth.

Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that intervention, because it allows me yet again to remind him that we are talking about a loan that the Government were providing. It was not a gift or a bung; it was a loan. It is astonishing to hear Government Members- [ Interruption. ]

Emily Thornberry: Sheffield, Hallam is not even a Labour marginal.

Thomas Docherty: Indeed, Sheffield, Hallam is not a Labour marginal; however, given the cuts that this Government are introducing, I suspect that it will be by the next election.

Damian Collins: The hon. Gentleman said that the money was a loan, but there was only an offer of a loan-an offer that the previous Government did not have the money to honour. That is the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) was making.

Thomas Docherty: Perhaps we will just have to say that I think that the hon. Gentleman is wrong on this one. The reality of the coalition is that there are lots of warm words, as we saw from the Minister's eloquent opening statement, but when it comes to the substance and the detail of how money will be levered in, they are doing things on a wing and a prayer, with their fingers crossed.

Guy Opperman: You make this point about Forgemasters, but why did you sell Westinghouse?

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I can assure hon. Members that I did not sell Westinghouse.

Thomas Docherty: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Barry Gardiner: I did sell Westinghouse. I was the Minister responsible at the time, and I remember being told by officials that we would be lucky if we got £1.5 billion for it. I said that I did not believe them for a moment, and we got £5.4 billion for it in the end. The reason we did so was that we had to take the liability off the balance books and we had an opportunity at that moment to sell it because it had the first place on an order in China, which made it extremely valuable. The Government benefited, and the British public benefited much more than the officials ever believed we would.

Thomas Docherty: I am grateful for that intervention, as it sums up entirely the correct decision taken on the basis of getting good value for the taxpayer because of the amount of revenue raised.
	That leads me to my next point-that there is a myth about how long it would take to build new nuclear power stations. It does not actually take 10 or 15 years to build nuclear power stations. Westinghouse has an excellent model on the shelf, which they can take off it. It would take only three to four years; the problem comes in the planning process. I gently suggest to the Minister that I hope he will ensure, as part of the energy drive, that carbon capture and nuclear plants are not slowed down by the planning system, so that we can get them up and running as quickly as we possibly can.

Caroline Lucas: I am sorry, but I cannot hear all this talk about nuclear power without feeling the urge to leap up-so I have leapt. Will the hon. Gentleman please list those nuclear power stations that have been built, first, on time, and secondly, to budget?

Thomas Docherty: I am grateful. I do not have that long left; I cannot list them all.

Caroline Lucas: It would not take long.

Thomas Docherty: I suspect that if the hon. Lady looked at the number of wind farms built on time and on budget she would find that that list would be about the same length as for nuclear power stations.
	I am very clear, as a champion of both the nuclear and clean coal industries-I have been throughout my whole time in politics-that there is no source of electricity that does not have some challenges and liabilities around it. The ones on nuclear are well documented, and I accept that some Conservative Members have raised some genuine points about clean-coal technology and the importing of coal. The problems surrounding both onshore and offshore wind farms are also well documented, as are problems with tidal power, which does not always work, so there are challenges to be overcome.
	That brings me back to the central point that the previous Government were absolutely correct to promote a balanced energy. They said that we needed an element of nuclear power, an element of renewables, an element of coal and, indeed, an element of gas. It is quite surprising that we have heard so little in this debate about the role of gas in our energy mix. Again, I gently suggest to Government Members that the 3,000 mile pipeline presents an issue that we might need to look at.
	We have had a fantastic debate. I very much welcome the Ministers to their new posts and I look forward to their perhaps providing some reassurance to my constituents when they sum up.

David Morris: A lot has been said about renewables, about where we are going as a country with our energy policy and about how we are going to keep the lights on in 10 years' time. In my Morecambe and Lunesdale constituency, a paradox occurs. We have two nuclear power stations; one is due to be decommissioned very shortly; and we have a plethora of wind farm applications going through the Lune valley and all the way through the M6 corridor into the Cambrian region.
	The nuclear power industry, it has to be said, gets a bad press. What is needed is education. I do not think anyone here could argue that a pellet the size of a 10p piece could power a town for, say, a month; yet we are trying to figure out how to keep the lights on in 10 years' time-and we all know that they are going to go out if we do not invest in nuclear power.
	I really believe in nuclear power; I am 100% for it. When I was standing for election in Morecambe and Lunesdale, I said that as long as I am the Member of Parliament for the constituency there will be nuclear power there. It is the largest employer in my constituency, but it also accounts for 10% of the national grid.
	We are due to have a new power station built in Heysham, if everything goes according to plan, and it should be noted that upgrades and new nuclear power stations are planned all through my region and up into Cumbria. Heysham is one of perhaps only two urban areas in the country that could possibly accept having a nuclear power station built in it.
	Although we rightly want to promote wind power, I cannot understand why wind power has to be located in areas of outstanding natural beauty.

Barry Gardiner: Because they are windy.

David Morris: Exactly. It is because of the wind, but the wind comes in from the sea, so why do we not put battalions of wind farms out in the sea? That is common sense. We do not have to put them all across the hills, valleys and mountains of this great country; we can put them out at sea instead, where they will generate more energy. There is evidence to suggest that turbines erected out at sea are more efficient than those erected on land in other ways too, because, as has been said, it can take quite some time to secure planning permission for the construction of both nuclear and wind sources of energy on land. This is a very contentious subject.
	We have to figure out how we are going to power this country in future. Yes, the coal mines did get closed down in the '80s, but in the town I am originally from, Leigh, the pits were closed down naturally, purely and simply because they had been over-mined. I still hear stories in my home town that Thatcher closed down the pits, however. She did not. If we all remember rightly, we will recall that there was a political argument going on between the unions and the Government of the day.
	Members need to acknowledge that we are now in 2010, and in 10 years' time the lights will go out unless we start building nuclear power stations and battalions of wind farms out at sea.

Caroline Lucas: I am in danger of repeating myself a lot, but given that it will take at least 10 or 15 years to get nuclear power up and running, if it is really the case-which I do not believe-that the lights will go off in 10 years, nuclear power simply will not help us. I find it ironic that this is supposed to be a debate about energy efficiency, yet the hon. Gentleman is spending his time talking about nuclear, wind and coal. Let us talk about energy efficiency. According to the previous Government's own figures, 40% of our existing energy could be saved using energy-efficiency measures alone.

David Morris: I thank the hon. Lady for her comments, and they are good comments, but we are talking about energy efficiency. Nuclear power is very efficient; it has a low carbon footprint.
	One subject that has not been addressed is how we in this country use energy. I use card meters in my domestic home. When I bought my house, an old gentleman had lived in it beforehand, and he used card meters so I carried on using them. When my family was growing up, I was one of those dads who was always saying, "Switch the lights off." Using card meters started to make us change our habits and how we used energy in our home. The Government might want to consider that. Perhaps we could top up through the internet as we might with a T-Mobile phone-excuse me for unintentionally plugging a particular company. We might usefully consider how we obtain our energy.

Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman has touched on an important point-education-so does he agree that our schools have a key role to play in teaching our children how vital energy efficiency is?

David Morris: I totally agree. What the public need to be educated in is how nuclear power can benefit this and other nations in solving their energy problems. I urge the House and the Minister to consider seriously where we will be going in 10 years' time. I think that nuclear power is the way forward. There is a place for wind farms and renewable energy, but two nuclear power stations in my constituency power more or less 10% of this national grid and if they are taken out of commission, the lights will go off.

Luciana Berger: May I welcome you to your post, Mr Deputy Speaker, and the Ministers to theirs? I also congratulate all hon. Members who have made very eloquent and interesting maiden speeches today, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon), who raised pertinent issues about workers in the civil service. I am conscious of the fact that some Back Benchers on both sides of the House are still waiting to speak and that we are yet to hear the wind-ups, and as I am particularly interested in what the Minister is going to say, I shall keep my comments brief.
	I am pleased to have the opportunity to participate in a debate on an issue as important as "Progress and prospects in energy efficiency". I am glad that we have heard a bit more detail today about the green deal-the detail provided in the Budget and the coalition agreement was sketchy. What we have heard about the green deal today has raised as many questions as answers. The Minister talked about energy-efficient products, including loft insulation and plugs. I wish to focus briefly on another very simple element of energy-efficient products, which was not discussed. The Energy Saving Trust estimates that 23% of the heat energy lost from a house escapes through inefficient windows, so it is vital that efficient windows are included in measures under the green deal.
	I know from dialogue that I have had with the Glass and Glazing Federation-the trade association that represents companies, including those in my constituency, who make, supply or fit glass and glass-related products-that the current economic downturn has been particularly damaging to the glass and window industry, and that at the current rate of installations the dates in the carbon emissions reduction target will not be met. My right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) highlighted the fact that glazing can cost about £10,000. That will not be met by the green deal at the limit stated by the Minister-that is if the green deal is to extend to energy-efficient glazing at all. Can he clarify whether the support for insulation that he outlined through the green deal and other projects will include that provided by energy-efficient windows? Will he consider a windows scrappage scheme? Estimates made by the Glass and Glazing Federation's energy savings calculator, which have been supported by the Energy Saving Trust, demonstrate that such a scheme could provide even greater benefits to energy conservation than those obtained from the excellent boiler scrappage scheme introduced under the Labour Government.
	A number of references have been made to the number 10 during this debate. A number of Members on both sides of the House have signed the 10:10 pledge to reduce our emissions by 10% over the course of this year. We learnt today from the Committee on Climate Change that the UK's carbon emissions have been reduced by 10% in the past year. If energy-efficient windows were installed in all properties nationally, our emissions would reduce by a further 10%, saving nearly 4 million tonnes of carbon and decreasing our national domestic energy expenditure by 10%. I urge the Minister to consider energy-efficient windows in his plans.

Sarah Newton: Thank you very much for letting me join this important debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. I wish to support what the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) said about the fact that a lot of today's debate has focused on energy generation, whereas in a debate on energy efficiency we should be focusing on energy consumed in the home, because that is a very large contributor to energy consumption in the UK and to our use of carbon fuels.
	I also wish to associate myself with some of the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood). I grew up in Cornwall, so I can remember the catastrophe of the Torrey Canyon and the oil spills that we saw off the coast of Cornwall, which in their day were as catastrophic as those we are seeing in the gulf of Mexico. That is, I think, a spur to us to reduce our dependence on oil and move swiftly to find more sustainable sources of energy.
	I believe that the green deal will offer significant positive benefits to people living in my constituency. Fuel poverty in Cornwall is among the highest in the country. That in part relates to the profile of our population: we have many people living in poverty, with average incomes some 25% lower than the national average, and the fastest-growing population of 80-year-olds. We are also a very rural area, with more than 63% of the population of households living in rural areas-that figure is only 19% for the rest of the country. As a result, people do not have access to mains gas, which is, of course, the cheapest form of energy. Many homes, especially in villages-as many as 80% of the homes in villages-have to depend on Calor gas or on fuel oil, which are the most expensive ways of heating a home and tip a lot of people into fuel poverty.
	There are also a lot of old properties, bungalows and properties built before the war with solid walls, which are difficult and expensive to insulate, as well as a large number of detached properties compared with the rest of England. As hon. Members will know, flats are usually the most energy-efficient properties and we have low numbers of those in Cornwall.
	I believe that the green deal will enable many people in my constituency to switch from expensive and carbon-intensive forms of energy to more low-carbon and cheaper alternatives, especially ground heat. Ground heat pumps are manufactured in my constituency and, using the CERT programme and working with social housing providers around the country, they have lifted many people out of fuel poverty. However, like some of my hon. Friends, I am slightly concerned. Although the initial amount of money available through the green deal-about £6,000-is a good start, I would appreciate it if, over time, Ministers considered increasing the amount of money that could be made available for the green deal to take into consideration the considerable costs of insulating solid wall properties and putting in ground source heat pumps.

Zac Goldsmith: For a long time, energy efficiency has had Cinderella status in the energy debate, despite the fact that in terms of value for money it is second to none. I am hugely excited by the green deal and think it will transform the way in which we interact with energy in this country, but would my hon. Friend support moves to extend the green deal to the commercial sector, too? That sector is responsible for about a fifth of our emissions and it has been calculated-I have not done the maths myself-that if we were to raise the energy performance certificate standard for commercial buildings to level C, we would save about £5 billion a year. It seems to be a no-brainer.

Sarah Newton: I would be delighted to support my hon. Friend. It is important that schools, hospitals and commercial organisations can benefit from the green deal. There is a huge appetite for people to have renewable energy, but the capital costs can be prohibitive.

Gregory Barker: May I quickly assure both my hon. Friends that the commercial sector-particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, but the sector in general, too-will be included in the green deal?

Sarah Newton: That is extremely welcome news. That is marvellous, and-to return to my ground heat pump manufacturers-they will be able to provide ground heat for businesses, hospitals and schools, as they do at the moment.
	I should be grateful if Ministers would consider one other matter in the context of renewable heat, and that is the incentive. The renewable heat incentive, as hon. Members will know, was designed to support the installation of a wide range of renewable heat technologies by compensating owners for the increased capital costs of such systems. I think it is an extremely bold and good idea, and Ministers will be receiving replies to the consultation process that was started by the last Government. Having listened to manufacturers in my constituency, I believe that although it is a good idea, some unfortunate anomalies have crept into the calculation of the tariff.
	The Carbon Trust and ground heat pump manufacturers have highlighted an inconsistency in the tariff calculations for the RHI that is having the unintended consequence of effectively doubling the rate of return for air source heat pump installations. It has been well proven that ground source heat pumps are a far more efficient way of producing energy over time than air source pumps. If the tariff continues as it stands in the proposals, it will severely disadvantage the ground source pump industry and other renewable technologies; indeed, it might, sadly, eliminate both of those technologies just when we need to be encouraging businesses to supply and manufacture such products in this country. I would be very grateful if Ministers would urgently review the consultation process and look at the tariff for small air source heat pumps.

Chris Williamson: May I start by congratulating all hon. Members who have made their maiden speeches today? Unfortunately, I was not in the Chamber to hear all of them, but I want, nevertheless, to congratulate them all because I know what a daunting prospect it is to make one's maiden speech in this Chamber.
	In opening the debate, the Minister quoted the Prime Minister saying that he wants to make this Government "the greenest Government ever"; well, it needs to be-and so does every subsequent Government, because the scale of the challenge facing not just the UK but the whole world requires radical steps to be taken. Climate change is probably the single biggest challenge that we as a civilisation have ever faced. We should therefore try to achieve cross-party consensus on the radical measures that need to be taken. The Stern review, which the previous Government commissioned, talked about the possibility of 40% of domestic energy requirements being generated by micro-technologies, and this Government need to do everything they can to encourage and support making that a reality. If we can secure a huge increase in micro-energy technology, that will reduce the problems caused by carbon emissions and will diminish the need for nuclear power stations.
	I do not agree with the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) about the nuclear debate, although I used to. Like George Monbiot, I have changed my view on the basis that is probably the lesser of two evils. However, that does not take away from the need for significant uplift in the amount of energy efficiency work that must be undertaken to existing residential accommodation and residential accommodation now being built, as well as to the commercial built environment, as the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) has pointed out. In cities the commercial built environment is responsible for the lion's share of carbon emissions, so it is important to address that issue in the new green deal that the Minister is talking about.
	I said that it was important for this Government to be greener than the previous Government, but that is not to diminish the huge strides made by the Labour Administration. Let me make it clear, for the record, that they were the first Government in the world to pass a climate change Act and that their Warm Front initiative introduced energy efficiency measures to about 2 million homes. Their feed-in tariff was a very important initiative, and the massive expansion of offshore wind energy announced by the previous Prime Minister is also welcome.
	My hon. Friend the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) referred to the boiler scrappage scheme. We were ahead of the game on the Kyoto commitments. Indeed, we led the world in securing them in the first place. We also led the world in trying to secure a deal at Copenhagen: that is another thing that we should be proud of, and we should applaud the former Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), for the role that he played in that.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test also spoke about the need for district heating schemes and how they can be used. Compared with the rest of Europe, this country does not have a great track record in that regard, but I believe that district heating schemes have tremendous potential, especially when linked to initiatives on waste. The treatment plants being developed around the country offer a way of dealing with waste that is better than burying it in the ground, and they also give us an opportunity to generate energy at the same time.

Louise Bagshawe: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is an overlooked aspect of renewable energy, and would he welcome investment in innovative technology? For instance, the BioWayste plant in my Corby constituency takes 146,000 tonnes of food waste and, using anaerobic digestion, turns it into enough energy to supply half the needs of an entire food processing plant for a whole year.

Chris Williamson: I do not know the details of the specific scheme to which the hon. Lady refers, but her description makes it sound particularly laudable. Based on the information that she has just given to the House, it is certainly something that I would like to associate myself with. So yes, I agree with her on that.
	When Bill Clinton launched the Clinton climate initiative, he said that tackling climate change provided an opportunity to save money, make money and create jobs. I wholeheartedly agree. The point has been made already in this afternoon's debate that there is an opportunity to create green jobs through investing in energy efficiency measures. We need to examine that angle, and the Government should consider how burgeoning new companies looking to enter the field can be encouraged and helped.
	In my constituency, Rolls-Royce has been working on a fuel cell for some time. If the company can bring the project to fruition, it will play a significant role in providing environmentally friendly of energy generation in this country. Again, the Government should look at ways to support that initiative.
	Other hon. Members have mentioned the link between fuel poverty and energy efficiency. That is something that I, as a former welfare rights officer, am particularly concerned about: we have seen how the increase in fuel prices has impacted on fuel poverty in this country, so it is important to make more strenuous efforts to ensure that low-income households benefit from the green deal.
	I am especially worried about low-income households in the private rented sector. Other hon. Members have mentioned them in the debate, and I think that the Minister said that the green deal would apply to that sector as well. We will be watching very closely to see how that develops, but it is clearly going to be an extremely important area.
	When I was leader of Derby city council, I set a very challenging target-that Derby should become self-sufficient in clean green energy by 2025. I worked with local companies in the city to get them on board for that agenda, and I have to say that there was a good deal of support for it-both for generating environmentally friendly energy and for ensuring that commercial premises were more energy-efficient. To come back to the point that the hon. Member for Richmond Park made, it will be interesting to hear what the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), has to say about the commercial sector when he winds up, because if that sector is ignored it will be a significant omission.
	The Government's stated aims on public spending, and the Budget that we debated last week and at the beginning this week, seem to militate against much of what the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), said this afternoon. Without Government investment in this important policy area, it will be difficult to deliver on the ambitions that he outlined. It is important for the Government to unlock the potential in local government, but the Chancellor, with massive swingeing cuts to local government finance-we had a debate on local government finance yesterday-will make it very difficult for the innovation locked away in local government to come out and flourish. That is another area that the Minister needs to look at carefully.
	Not only are there to be cuts in local authority expenditure, but restrictions are being put on local authorities' ability to use, for example, prudential borrowing as a way of moving the agenda forward. Again, that is something that the Minister needs to look at. Perhaps he might talk to his colleagues in the Con-Dem coalition to see how that can be addressed.
	If we can get it right, and address energy efficiency and tackle climate change, there will be significant implications for the size of the deficit. In the prospectus that the Chancellor outlined last week, he took a direction diametrically opposed to the one that he should have taken to tackle the deficit. His cuts package will create large-scale unemployment, with tens of thousands of public sector workers losing their jobs, and tens of thousands-possibly hundreds of thousands-of workers in the private sector losing their employment as well. Investment in green technology and energy efficiency can generate huge numbers of new jobs; that would take people off the dole, generate income tax revenue for the Exchequer and help reduce the size of the deficit. That deficit will get bigger as a result of the Chancellor's Budget last week, and that in turn will result in further pressure to make even more swingeing cuts. We would then end up in a vicious circle.
	I wish the Minister luck in his ambition for the new green deal. It is a good step in the right direction, but he needs to go a lot further. It is important for him to recognise the measures that were taken by the previous Administration and build on them, and to do what he can-although I accept that he has what is probably a fairly junior position in Government at the moment-to persuade the Chancellor of the error of his ways. I am sorry, but last week's Budget will make it very difficult for us to deliver on the ambitions that the Minister outlined earlier.

Caroline Lucas: I welcome the Minister's statement today, not least because I was getting a bit worried about the Government's commitment to this agenda. The Chancellor's Budget statement contained absolutely nothing about energy efficiency, and a mere 23 words on the proposal for a green investment bank. There was a little more detail in the Budget report on measures to bring forward a low-carbon economy, but that was still only six paragraphs out of a total of 121 pages. That gave us a bit of a sense of what the Government's priorities might be, and it shows that we still have a long way to go, in spite of the Minister's fine words.
	Although the first of those paragraphs stated:
	"Climate change is one of the most serious threats that the world faces",
	I still do not see anything like the kind of urgency that we need if we are to avoid the worst of climate change. If I compare climate change to the kind of military threat with which we are more familiar, we need a response commensurate to the response that would be forthcoming if we were facing a military threat. We need that degree of single-mindedness and that level of resources.
	The Committee on Climate Change reported today, and it is scathing about what it calls the "light-touch" regulation policies of the past decade. It made four recommendations that it says should be acted on within a year, including a new national programme for energy efficiency in buildings. The chief executive of the committee said:
	"This is not going to happen from the bottom up. We need crunchy policies that provide strong incentives."
	I am not sure that I know what crunchy policies are, but they are certainly not the late and voluntary measures that we have seen so far. We need urgent action now.
	Let us take housing as an example. More than a quarter of the UK's CO2 emissions come from the energy that we use in our homes. If all the 6.1 million homes with uninsulated cavity walls installed cavity wall insulation, we could save 3.9 million tonnes of CO2 a year, and £690 million on energy bills. If everyone with a gas, oil or LPG boiler upgraded to a condensing boiler, the UK would save 6.7 million tonnes of CO2 a year and £1.3 billion in energy bills. If all the 13 million homes with insufficient loft insulation topped up to 270 mm, the UK could save nearly 3 million tonnes of CO2 a year and £560 million in energy bills. Those three measures alone could reduce the UK's emissions from the household sector by nearly 10%, so we need to see faster action.
	As others have said, it is the existing housing stock that is the real challenge. New build homes will be required to meet a defined zero carbon standard by 2016, but at least 85% of the homes that will be in use in 2050 have already been built. Worryingly, there is no set of standards for existing homes to meet in order to achieve an 80 per cent reduction in emissions.
	The Government have given sketchy outlines of some of their intentions. We have heard a little more about the green deal proposals, and I am grateful to the Minister for that. But I am not convinced that a market mechanism alone will be enough to generate the level of take-up that we need to achieve large scale energy efficiency improvements for the housing stock. Current proposals focus all their attention on the up-front capital costs, relying on this market-led solution, but they risk ignoring other barriers that need to be addressed, such as lack of consumer awareness, and particularly the belief that measures could cost much more than they actually will.
	We need to ask ourselves how realistic the proposals are, particularly at a time of economic difficulty, and whether all the people whom we need to target will be willing to opt in. Many households that could pay for energy efficiency measures may not do so as long as those actions remain discretionary, and economically disadvantaged and fuel- poor households will need significant extra support beyond CERT to be able to act.
	If the Government want mass take-up of energy efficiency measures, legislation must introduce mandatory standards for domestic heating and insulation in the form of an energy efficiency rating. The legislation could stipulate, for example, that by 2020, where technically feasible, all dwellings should reach an energy efficiency standard no lower than an E rating, as measured on the energy performance certificate scale. That requirement could apply to all landlords, social and private. Failure to comply would mean that the property could not be let, for example. The requirement would also have to be introduced in the owner-occupied sector, where failure to comply would mean that the property was not fit for sale.
	It is on such a scale that the Government need to think. If they backed a major programme of public and private investment in energy efficiency and renewables, we could all reap big rewards. I have been part of a group calling for just such a green new deal for quite a long time before the Government adopted the green deal as their own branding. A serious investment in building new energy systems, including energy efficiency, combined heat and power, and renewables, for millions of homes and other buildings would amount to a £50 billion-plus programme per year.
	That is what we need-a ground-breaking programme based on Government investment to create hundreds of thousands of jobs, to stabilise the economy and to reduce emissions. Those are the kind of measures that we need-particularly when we have one foot still in a recession-not the savage public spending cuts announced by the Government, which are likely to trigger a double-dip recession.
	Even if the Government were not as ambitious as that, there are other measures that they could consider to achieve mandatory minimum energy efficiency standards. Able-to-pay households could have the necessary work funded through a mechanism such as the proposed green investment bank, while for low-income households work could be funded through a system of 100% grants on top of CERT expenditure. Those grants might also be funded through the green investment bank and accessed through local authorities, but the Government would be responsible for repayment.
	We have not yet even been told whether the Government will retain the previous Administration's target of insulating every home in the UK, where technically possible, with cavity wall and loft insulation by 2015. That target did not go far enough or fast enough, but it was at least a welcome acceptance of the principle of setting standards affecting the energy efficiency of privately owned or rented homes. I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify the situation when he replies. According to the National Insulation Association, we still need to insulate another 15 million lofts and 9 million cavity walls by 2015. Are the Government still committed to achieving that? The previous Government never did produce a plan to deliver that target, and I know that green councillors working on large-scale, free, area-based insulation programmes are still waiting with bated breath for such a plan.
	Perhaps part of the finance for a mass street-by-street insulation programme could be obtained if the Government followed the example of the German Government, who have implemented a windfall profit tax on the production of nuclear electricity. In the UK the tax could be levied, for example, on British Energy. Currently, assuming carbon prices of at least €10 per tonne, EDF, which owns British Energy, is receiving around £350 million a year in windfall profits from nuclear electricity production that would still be generated without any carbon price at all. That money is not being used to reduce carbon emissions, but is simply being swallowed up by the company. If instead a windfall tax were levied, the revenue could be used to pay for a whole raft of energy efficiency measures.
	There is also a case for levying a windfall tax on the fossil fuel utilities, while we wait for the reform of the emissions trading scheme to come into effect in 2013. As hon. Members will know, at the moment carbon permits are given away, not auctioned, and that means that the fossil fuel companies, too, are receiving windfall profits.
	I also hope that the Government will give proper consideration to both a stamp duty rebate and some form of equivalent grant for homes that do not reach the stamp duty threshold, so that we take maximum advantage of the house-moving process for incentivising costly and disruptive whole house retrofits.
	The decent homes standard for social housing comes to an end this year, and it has been successful in improving the energy efficiency of such homes. However, this Administration, as far as I know, is offering no successor to the decent homes standard, although one was proposed by the previous Government in order to provide the framework for social housing providers to make long-term investment in energy efficiency. That hardly sits well with the Government's green claims-nor does the announcement that the previous Government's welcome proposal of a register of landlords is to be scrapped. That register would have provided an opportunity to make landlords in the private rented sector adhere to minimum energy efficiency standards, as well as other standards, for tenants. That sector has the highest proportion of dangerously cold homes, and often houses particularly vulnerable families, but it is not being addressed by any policy measures.
	The Government's proposed green deal also, as far as I know, splits the incentive-in other words the landlord pays for the measures but the tenant receives the benefit via their energy bills-and that, again, could be a significant barrier to wholesale improvement to homes in the private rented sector, which in England number 3.1 million, nearly 15% of the housing stock.
	The best approach to the private rented sector would make minimum standards mandatory and toughen those over time to make it illegal to rent out a property below a certain energy efficiency rating, with very few exceptions. That could start with properties in energy performance certificate bands F and G, and then tighten over a clear timetable. Information on the energy performance of the property through the EPC needs to be of a much higher quality. It needs to be better enforced, and given a higher profile for both landlords and tenants. The Energy Saving Trust and local authorities should have access to the information on EPCs so that action can be better targeted and co-ordinated. Primary legislation may well be needed to get the full potential out of those measures. There should also be financial incentives to support and encourage investment to the standard required by the minimum standards, including an extended landlord's energy-saving allowance, and a reduction in VAT on refurbishment.
	Any Government who were serious about energy efficiency would have used their first Budget to reduce VAT to 5% on building repairs and on improvement work to existing buildings immediately, because that measure would have made it much easier for home owners to make energy-efficient repairs and improvements to their properties. That is a win-win agenda. The Government have said that they want to be the greenest Government, and I have said that, unfortunately, that is not a very ambitious target. None the less, if they do want to meet it, they will have to do a lot better.

Emily Thornberry: It is a great honour to close this debate for my party from the Dispatch Box, and this is the first time that I have done so. For many people the debate will be memorable not necessarily for my contribution, but for what will have flashed into their minds and been difficult to get rid of-that is, the picture of the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), hoovering his carpets wearing less than an apron. However, it is clear from the debate that, although there is broad agreement throughout the House about where we need to get to, there is much disagreement about how we get there.
	Historically, energy efficiency has not been Britain's No. 1 priority, with its temperate climate and plentiful supplies of fuel, whether wood, coal, gas or oil. Therefore, for far too long we have put up with, and built too many, draughty houses. As the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) said in his thoughtful contribution, we have to change the way in which we build houses. Times have changed and Britain has to change, too. Energy prices have increased massively, and now we have a choice: we can either invest in a low-carbon economy using renewable sources of energy, or wait for the gas to run out. Neither option is cheap, although the latter also comes at the price of creating man-made, irreversible climate change. In the UK, 13% of our greenhouse gas emissions are caused by the way in which we heat our homes, but the inevitable increasing cost of fuel bills has, and will continue to, put great strains on the incomes of the poorest households.
	People fully understand the urgency of the matter, and in meetings in my constituency I have spoken to people in their 80s and to children as young as five about the importance of ensuring that we insulate our homes and address fuel poverty. I suspect that the passion that I have developed for the issue has come from listening and learning from the people whom I represent, and today we have heard a number of passionate and inspirational maiden speeches from people who clearly have a great love for their constituencies.
	We heard from the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), who, after congratulating Lord Jim Knight on his ennoblement, spoke of the great beauty of his constituency. He also told us of his six ancestors who have been Members. It seems that one of them spoke only once in 32 years, and we hope that the hon. Gentleman does not follow in that tradition.
	The hon. Member for South Ribble (Lorraine Fullbrook) is the first woman to represent her area, and she paid tribute to her predecessor, David Borrow, and in particular his work in relation to HIV sufferers. We learned that South Ribble is the home of Chicago town pizzas, as well as Leyland and some large bird sanctuaries, and I have no doubt that she will be a very effective voice for South Ribble in Westminster.
	We heard also from the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), who eschewed tradition and decided to be controversial by claiming that her constituency was the most beautiful in Britain. She also took on the National Grid and certainly seems to have a strong campaigning spirit and steel.
	Talking of strong campaigning spirit and steel, I should note that the hon. Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe) also made it clear that, although she is in favour of nuclear power and onshore wind, she is not in favour of them in her constituency. As my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said, Government Front Benchers could consider putting some large solar panels in Corby instead.
	The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) explained that, although he was a Unionist, he could in some circumstances feel comfortable talking about green politics. He described his beautiful constituency and reminded me of many visits that I and my family have taken to that extraordinary area. I was reminded, in particular, of Castle Ward, which also made me think of the coalition. Castle Ward is a very odd building, because one half is classic Georgian and the other Strawberry Hill gothic. It is up to Members to decide which bit represents which political party. Anyway, one particular marriage at Castle Ward was doomed, and the woman went back to Scotland after only a few months, so perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there.
	We heard also from Members who have a large amount of experience, and their contributions were profound and very important. My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli spoke of the cuts in funding to the Welsh Assembly and the impact that they might have on the Welsh boiler scrappage scheme and the Warm Front scheme. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) spoke about the feed-in tariff threshold and called for it to apply to 3 kW appliances.
	We also heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), who spoke passionately about how climate change had become his political priority. He strongly urged the Government to reduce VAT on energy-efficiency measures. I understand that the number of interventions during the speech made by the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) is a record. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) made a knowledgeable contribution about the power station in his constituency and the bid for carbon capture and storage. He asked the Minister to make a decision about when the competition was going to happen.
	The hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) was burnishing his pro-nuclear and anti-onshore-wind credentials; I suspect that he will make a friend of the hon. Member for Corby. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) made a plea for energy-efficient windows, while the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) promoted ground source heat pumps, which are made in her constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) asked the Chancellor to think again, as we all do. Meanwhile, the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) made a wide-ranging and well informed speech, calling particularly for mandatory minimum standards of insulation. Her contribution will be taken seriously beyond the House.
	Much of what the previous Government did on energy efficiency has had broad support from this place, and I am proud of the progress that we made. It began particularly with the Climate Change Act 2008, which, ironically, will be seen as one of Labour's greatest achievements only if the coalition Government take seriously the attendant low-carbon transition plans and the carbon budget. Lord Turner, the Chair of the Committee on Climate Change, said on the "Today" programme this morning, "The last Government set out a series of policies. As long as we drive those through, we will make a difference." I was reassured to hear from one with as profound an understanding as my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) that the CCC's report recognises the Government's achievements.
	It is important that we cut our household-sector emissions. That is an important part of the plan; we expect to cut them by 29%. In furtherance of that goal, we insulated 5 million homes and, building on that, went on to introduce the carbon emissions reduction target, or CERT. The Government's reconfirmation of the decision to extend CERT to December 2012 is greatly to be welcomed; I am grateful to have heard that from the Minister in his opening speech.
	The next question is about the community energy saving programme, or CESP, which focused on household energy efficiency in poor areas and worked on a house-by-house, street-by-street basis. A precursor to the programme was established in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon), who also made a maiden speech today. It was called warm zone in her area and she rightly told us of the great benefits to those in fuel poverty in her constituency.
	There is also the decent homes programme, which has made flats in housing estates in constituencies such as mine warm, decent and dry. I am proud that the standard assessment procedure, or SAP, ratings have increased in the private and social rented sectors since 1997, under the Labour Government; the social rented sector improved more and faster.
	Another priority under Labour was to fight fuel poverty. The hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) asked why fuel poverty went up under a Labour Government. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) explained that it was because of an unprecedented rise in fuel prices. Nevertheless, without Government measures, the number of fuel-poor households would have been 400,000 to 800,000 more in England in 2008.
	What about Warm Front? That flagship policy of ours gave energy-efficiency grants to the most vulnerable households. We Labour Members are very concerned about the future of the policy and the priority that the coalition will give to those in fuel poverty as a whole. The Minister said in his opening remarks that his new policies are game changers and innovations. If they are, and if they work, we will support them. If the Government keep to our carbon reduction plans and time is not wasted, if their strategy is coherent and effective and if they meet the needs of the poor, they will have our support. However, if, as we fear, they are prepared to sacrifice all for the sake of short-term savings, ignoring the long-term need, they will have a fight on their hands.
	We greatly welcome the extension of CERT, but does the coalition believe that that is the game changer that will really help the fuel-poor? How many in fuel poverty do the Government expect will be helped as a result of the extension of CERT? Will the Minister of State, hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), clarify whether the super-priority group of 15% is in addition to the 40% priority group or contained within it? In January, the Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), said that grant programmes were to be maintained. That is good news, perhaps, because Warm Front is a grant programme. Does this mean that the Government are thinking again about Warm Front? Will they ensure that it helps the fuel-poor, given that CERT alone may not be enough?
	I have gabbled on-I appreciate that I have spoken very fast-and I am afraid that I have another three pages to go, but I promise to finish soon. It is odd that only those of us who are speaking from the Dispatch Box are limited as to the amount of time that we have. Ministers have an extremely difficult job, but if they act within the parameters that we have set out in helping the fuel poor and truly cutting carbon emissions, they will certainly have our support; otherwise, they will not.

Charles Hendry: Let me begin by warmly welcoming the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) to the Dispatch Box. In the past, as a Parliamentary Private Secretary, she has been forced merely to chunter occasionally from the sidelines, and it is wonderful to hear her soothing, mellifluous tones. She probably did not expect that in her first speech from the Dispatch Box she would be talking about the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), doing his hoovering in the buff-a thought that is as unpleasant as the activity is potentially dangerous. We congratulate her on her promotion and wish her well in her new role.
	This excellent debate has shown the quality of Members in this House and their understanding of a wide range of energy-efficiency issues, which occasionally spread into other areas of energy policy. We have also heard some outstandingly good maiden speeches, and I congratulate all hon. Members who have made those contributions today. I endorse what the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury said in hoping that it will not be 32 years until my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) speaks here again. He, too, talked about nudity; I thought that it might become a recurring theme, and was relieved that it did not. The House will welcome his commitment to being a free-thinking advocate of the interests of South Dorset, although the Whips blanched when he said that. We look forward to many future contributions from him.
	The hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) expressed concern about jobs in North Tyneside. We now have a real opportunity to develop new jobs in the marine and offshore wind sectors, and I want to work together with local authority representatives to try to make the strongest case for developing green jobs in this country. She talked about the mining industry; I want her to be in no doubt that this Government are determined to be a friend of the mining industry. I want to see a renaissance of mining in Britain, and I want British miners to deliver the coal for new clean-coal facilities so that we are less reliant in the future on imported coal.
	The hon. Lady referred to energy efficiency in terms of work that she had done in her local council. It is vital that we involve local councils in this work-a point that was made very effectively by the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson). As he said, we have to unlock the potential that exists. We must capitalise and build on councils' expertise as social landlords if we are to ensure that we achieve maximum energy-efficiency potential across the housing stock.
	My hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Lorraine Fullbrook) made an impassioned maiden speech in which she talked about companies in her constituency which can contribute towards reducing carbon emissions. She described the problems that she had experienced with Warm Front. Many of us raised similar issues during the last Parliament, and the Government, to their credit, addressed many of them. We now have to monitor carefully how Warm Front works and moves forward to ensure that it is delivering help in the most effective way.
	The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made a thoughtful and measured speech. I hope to visit Northern Ireland soon to look at the marine current turbines project in Strangford lough. He made the telling point that targets must have a purpose. We must raise our ambitions, and targets are an important way to achieve that, but we must be certain that those targets are deliverable and achievable.
	The hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) raised a whole range of issues, particularly about National Grid's plans for new infrastructure across the Somerset levels. National Grid clearly has a legal obligation to show that it is considering the alternatives. The hon. Lady can truly expect that we will take into account her concerns. We know that in making these decisions we have to carry people with us, because those decisions must have public support if they are to be wholly endorsed.
	The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) made, although it was not her maiden speech, what I believe was her first speech on her own subject. I hope that we will hear from her on a regular basis. I want her to harry the Government and chase us to do better. I want her constantly to say, "Let's raise our aspirations to do the best we can". We are most determined to be the greenest Government there has ever been, but I want to know that we will be truly challenged by people who always want to raise the bar higher. We have to be objective and realistic about what we can achieve, but we should be absolutely clear that we welcome such contributions, and we encourage the hon. Lady in that respect.
	I have the greatest personal respect for the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock), and I know her long-standing personal commitment to this subject. However, in the past we have seen a plethora of schemes, consultations, tests, experiments and pilot projects. The question should not be how many schemes were introduced but what they delivered.
	When we look back over the past few years, of course we recognise things that have been done well, but fuel poverty doubled from its base of 2 million households in 2004 to 4 million in 2007, and it is probably at 5 million now. The energy efficiency of our homes is still among the worst in Europe. When there was an opportunity to welcome the green deal into the Energy Act 2010, the then Government voted it down. There was no Government leadership in saying, "We can show the way forward by requiring all Departments to reduce their carbon emissions by 10% in a year." Perhaps one of the most telling indicators of all is that in five years, we did not have a single debate on energy efficiency in the Government's name. Our concern is not the intent, good will and hopes that the right hon. Lady had, but whether the previous Government had the magnitude of ambition that the issue requires.
	Now we are talking not about a few thousand homes being made energy-efficient but about 14 million homes across the country that are currently poorly insulated and need to be brought up to the right level. That is not tinkering, it is a fundamental rethink of the approach that we take. As the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle, said, that is a step-change in the Government's ambition.
	The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) made an extremely thoughtful and measured speech. He talked about the lack of skills, a point that the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) took up. I can confirm to the hon. Member for Cheltenham that our hon. Friends in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are considering whether colleges should be able to self-accredit and whether we can deliver the change that he mentioned.
	The hon. Gentleman talked about the complex nature of the code for sustainable homes, and I agree with him that simplicity should be an important part of our approach. We want to drive that through, because if we are to carry people with us, they have to understand what is being asked of them. He talked also about smart metering, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood). That will be critical not just to how we deliver energy efficiency but to how we deal with fuel poverty. We need to enable people to access the cheapest tariffs, and as in Northern Ireland, enable those on prepayment meters to have cheaper tariffs than others. The goal is not just smart metering but the prize of a smart grid, so that we can manage demand much more effectively and avoid the need to build new power stations by making optimum use of what we have.
	I hope that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) is satisfied by the offer that my ministerial colleague made to meet her to talk about her concerns in her constituency. We are very keen to understand the issue of thresholds and how we can take the most effective approach possible.
	The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) and the former Minister, the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford, spoke about how we could incentivise private landlords to improve their energy efficiency. We are absolutely determined to secure that through the green deal. There will be other policies on the matter as well, but we believe that the green deal provides an opportunity for good landlords to take the action necessary to improve the energy efficiency of their homes. It gets around the problem of their paying for an improvement from which they will personally get no benefit, because the funding mechanism addresses that. We hope that it can make a real change to disincentivisation, but we recognise that if it does not, further regulations may be necessary.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe) talked about the need for transparency and many other matters. We understand the concerns that she and others have, and we will consider them further.
	I have been able to respond to many of the issues raised in the debate. The Government are driving forward a clear agenda for change, and I am pleased that we have the good will and support of the House in taking it forward. I again commend colleagues who have made their maiden speeches, and I reassure those whose points have not been responded to that we will write to them with a full response. This has been an outstanding debate on a key issue, and I am very pleased that we have had the chance to have it so early in the Parliament.
	 Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3).

Wayne David: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. This afternoon, in the Welsh Grand Committee, the Government suffered their first defeat of this Parliament. By 21 votes to seven, the proposition that the Committee had considered the matter of the Government's legislative programme and the Budget statement as they relate to Wales was rejected. In the light of that, will you use your good offices to ensure that another meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee takes place in order to consider these issues?

Lindsay Hoyle: That is not a point of order for me. The hon. Gentleman has now put the matter on the record, and we will leave it at that.

Business of the House

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 15),
	That, at this day's sitting, proceedings on the Motion in the name of Sir George Young relating to Select Committees (Membership), may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.- ( Stephen  Crabb.)
	 Question agreed to.

Select Committees (Membership)

David Heath: I beg to move,
	That the following amendments to Standing Order No. 152 (Select committees related to government departments) shall have effect for the remainder of the present Parliament:-
	In the table in paragraph (2), in the final column (Maximum members)
	(1) leave out '11' and insert '12', in respect of:-
	(a) the Defence Committee,
	(b) the Justice Committee and
	(c) the Welsh Affairs Committee;
	(2) leave out '11' and insert '13' in respect of the Treasury Committee; and
	(3) leave out '13' and insert '14' in respect of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.
	The House will recall that the Government brought forward proposals on 15 June to increase the membership of the Defence, Justice and Treasury Committees from 11 to 16 members and of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee from 13 to 14 members. These proposals were offered in good faith, with the intention of securing proper representation for smaller parties on certain Select Committees. However, they were resisted by the elected Select Committee Chairs, who tabled amendments to remove the increases to 16 and to provide, as an alternative, a power for the Committee of Selection to increase the size of no more than three Committees by no more than two members.
	The proposal was also strongly resisted during the debate on the business of the House motion by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd)on the ground that it did not provide for Plaid Cymru to be represented on the Welsh Affairs Committee. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart)also expressed reservations about the proposed motion.
	We therefore undertook not to move the original motion, but to consult further and come back with new proposals. The membership of departmental Select Committees, including the party composition of the Committees, is for the Committee of Selection to propose and for the House as a whole to approve. The purpose of these changes in the maximum membership is to give the Committee greater latitude to accommodate smaller parties on the Committees concerned while still broadly reflecting the composition of the House.
	The Government accept the view, expressed by the Wright Committee and the Liaison Committee, that smaller Committees are generally preferable. However, the Wright Committee also acknowledged the desirability of ensuring that smaller parties were properly represented. There is a clear tension between these two objectives, and I hope that the House can agree that these proposals represent a fair compromise between the two.
	I especially wish to express my thanks to my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury for making efforts to secure a swift and satisfactory conclusion to negotiations.
	In order to reflect our commitment to the Wright reforms, we propose that the changes should be limited to the current Parliament. No doubt the issue will need to be revisited anyway in the next Parliament, depending on the composition of the House. I hope that the House will be able to agree to the motion this evening so that the Committee of Selection can nominate members and the Committees can get on with their work.

Rosie Winterton: I thank the Deputy Leader of the House for tabling this motion proposing changes to the maximum number of members of Select Committees. As I think that this is the first time that we have faced each other at the Dispatch Box, I also take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment as Deputy Leader of the House.
	The report on rebuilding the House identified the importance of the inclusion of the minor parties and independents on Select Committees and we are grateful for the work that has been done through the usual channels to address that issue. It is now right for the House to consider the motion so that the minor parties and independents can be accommodated on those Committees, thereby ensuring their participation.

Alan Beith: It is a pity that we have to have this motion, because it departs so markedly from the Wright Committee recommendation that, in the interests of working effectively and not making too many claims on the pool of available Members, Committees should have nine or, at most, 11 members. The elected Chairs of Committees have a strong view that we should not be departing from the Wright recommendations. Of course, when we saw the motion to increase Committee membership to 16, we thought it hard to imagine a more dramatic departure from what Wright recommended.
	There has been a continuous process of modification which later led to the proposal that a series of Committees should have two extra members. That was then further modified to a motion in which only one Committee had two extra members and a number had one extra member. That was further modified on Monday night when I asked the Leader of the House to include the provision that it would apply only for this Parliament, which has been claimed as a success by my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House. I genuinely welcome the willingness of the Leader of the House, his deputy and the Patronage Secretary to try to resolve this matter. However, the view of Committee Chairs is that this matter could have been resolved within existing allocations had parties been prepared to make adjustments to meet the needs of minority parties.
	In fact, the Conservative party has done that, because the penultimate stage of the discussions involved an additional Conservative Member to match the fact that there was an additional Opposition Member represented by the addition of a minority party Member. Committee Chairs are generally in favour of minority party Members being on Select Committees, and I look forward to having the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) on my Committee, as I understand he intends to be. He will be a very good Member to have on the Justice Committee. However, had the Labour party been prepared to give up one or two places on Committees, we might not be where we are now. None the less, I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member the Deputy Leader of the House has reasserted the importance of the Wright recommendation, and I hope that we will eventually return to the principle that we keep Committees reasonably small, with members fully involved in their work.

David Heath: I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Doncaster Central (Ms Winterton) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) for their comments. I am pleased that we are able to apply a good dollop of common sense to what was required in order to ensure that all parties can play their proper parts in the workings of this House. I commend this motion to the House.
	 Question put and agreed to.

Business of the House

Ordered,
	That, at the sitting Monday 5 July, notwithstanding Standing Order No. 20 (Time for taking private business) the Private Business set down by the Chairman of Ways and Means may be entered upon at any hour, and may then be proceeded with, though opposed, for three hours, after which the Speaker shall interrupt the business.- (Mr Vara.)
	 Ordered,
	That, at the sitting on Wednesday 14 July, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 16 (Proceedings under an Act or an European Union documents), the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motion in the name of Secretary Theresa May relating to Police Grant Report not later three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion; proceedings many continue, though opposed, after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.- (Mr Vara.)

PETITION
	 — 
	Dunstable Northern Bypass

Andrew Selous: It gives me pleasure to present a petition calling for a Dunstable Northern bypass. The petition was organised by Dunstable town council and others.
	The petition reads:
	The Petition of Dunstable Town Council in the constituency of South West Bedfordshire,
	Declares that the town of Dunstable suffers serious traffic congestion; further declares that a link road between the A5 and M1 would relieve this congestion; and notes that HM Treasury approved this link on 9 December 2009.
	The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to commence without delay the A5-M1 link as approved by HM Treasury on 9 December 2009.
	And the Petitioners remain, etc.
	[P000840]

A5 TO M1 LINK

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. -( Mr Vara .)

Andrew Selous: I am grateful to Mr Speaker for giving me the chance to raise with the Minister responsible for roads the vital need for the A5 to M1 link. When I made my maiden speech, on 2 July 2001, I stressed the urgent need for a bypass for Dunstable, Houghton Regis and the surrounding villages. I also stressed its importance to Leighton Buzzard as a business location. The need for a bypass in Dunstable is not new; indeed, the first mention of congestion in the town that I have been told about is in a 1924 newspaper article that talked about the traffic bottleneck in Dunstable. My predecessor, Sir David Madel, who was the Member for South West Bedfordshire for 31 years, from 1970 to 2001, also campaigned for a bypass for Dunstable throughout his time in Parliament.
	Not long after my election, I presented another petition to the House, signed by 25,000 of my constituents-more than elected me in 2001-calling for the urgent need for a bypass to be addressed. I was therefore delighted when, in July 2003, the then Secretary of State for Transport-now the shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling)-announced to the House that he was
	"endorsing recommendations for improvements to some trunk roads of regional importance,"
	one of which was
	"a northern bypass for Dunstable".-[ Official Report, 9 July 2003; Vol. 408, c. 1177.]
	I asked him when the Dunstable northern bypass would be built. In reply, he said:
	"In the past five years, there have been long and detailed studies, but the time has now come when we need to get on and implement them, precisely to remove some of the inconvenience and congestion and to deliver the improved safety about which he is concerned."-[ Official Report, 9 July 2003; Vol. 408, c. 1195.]
	I was therefore hugely disappointed when, at the end of the Parliament after which the then Secretary of State announced that the Dunstable northern bypass would be built, not a shovel had hit the ground.
	It is a huge source of concern to me how long it takes for a new road to be built in this country. I understand that other European countries are able to build roads much more quickly. I understand that there is a much shorter delay between the announcement of a road being built and its completion in many of our competing neighbouring countries. One consequence of delay is that the cost escalates hugely, making even more demands on the public purse. The cost of the A5 to M1 link has virtually tripled since the first estimates back in 2003. I have spoken in the past of the near-Zimbabwean levels of inflation on major roads contracts. I understand that the Department insists on open book accounting, yet I cannot help believing that there must be cheaper ways for such roads to be built. I suggest that we need to take an urgent look at how genuine the competition is between road builders, to ensure that the Department and the taxpayer get real value for money in building new roads.
	Sometimes I am tempted to think that the area that I represent has become, if not the land that time forgot, then the land that successive Governments have forgotten to build the necessary infrastructure in. In the north of Bedfordshire, the county town of Bedford seems to have all the bypasses that it needs. I had not even heard of the village of Ridgmont, to the north of my constituency, until I was told that it was to receive its own much needed bypass. As I will demonstrate shortly, the need for a bypass to the north of Dunstable is overwhelming for the residents of Dunstable, Houghton Regis and the surrounding villages, but a bypass is also essential for Leighton Buzzard.

Nadine Dorries: My hon. Friend mentioned the village of Ridgmont. The bypass there has been gratefully received. Ridgmont is a village, and there are other villages in my constituency that will benefit hugely from the A5 to M1 link. Those villages will suffer from a lack of connectivity if the road to which he has referred is not built. Does he agree that it is imperative that the road should be built, not just for his constituency, but for the whole of Bedfordshire?

Andrew Selous: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's support. The road will also benefit major towns such as Aylesbury, in providing fast direct access to the national motorway network.
	I do not want Ministers or officials at the Department for Transport to think for one moment that the Luton-Dunstable busway will provide the answers to the problems of congestion, retail decline and lack of business growth in Dunstable and Houghton Regis. It will not. The only hope to secure economic regeneration to provide much needed jobs for my constituents and to provide much needed local housing is for the A5 to M1 link to be built urgently.
	The need for the A5 to M1 link can be demonstrated by many examples of life in Dunstable. Dunstable high street has 56 empty shops in it because of the length of time it takes for shoppers to get into and out of the town centre. Some reductions in business rates have been granted as a result, which obviously means a loss of revenue to the Exchequer. During recent times of economic growth, every other area of Bedfordshire increased its level of employment between 2001 and 2008, but in South Bedfordshire there was a loss of 1,850 jobs-overwhelmingly due to congestion. Those figures are taken from the annual business inquiry data provided by the Central Bedfordshire council.
	Major employers have closed down and left the area over the years and have not been replaced by sufficient numbers of new employers to provide the jobs that my constituents need today. Many of my constituents are forced to travel out of the area to find work, thus making congestion even worse.
	Congestion is bad both for travellers going north-south on the A5 through Dunstable as well as for travellers heading east-west on the A505 through Dunstable. One story from a local shopkeeper illustrates this well. A customer was travelling east on the A505 along West street, trying to get to a shop in the Quadrant shopping centre in the middle of Dunstable. He was stuck in traffic as so often happens; he rang the shop keeper who left his shop, crossed the middle of Dunstable, gave him the goods as he was stuck in traffic in his car. That customer then turned round in the road, and drove out of Dunstable never to come and shop in the town again. How can the shopkeepers of the town I am proud to represent make a living when they are faced with an infrastructure deficit as bad as that?
	The economic benefits of building this road have been estimated by both the Highways Agency and the East of England to be very significant. Central Bedfordshire council, with its private sector developers, also intends to build the Woodside industrial estate connection road from the new junction 11A, which will not require Department for Transport funds.

Kelvin Hopkins: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and I support everything he says. Does he accept that what he is suggesting will also bring enormous benefits to the town of Luton, especially when the bypass right across north Luton is built?

Andrew Selous: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I am grateful for the support from him and from Luton borough council on this matter.
	This road will greatly ease congestion in Dunstable and lead to much lower pollution levels and a better quality of life for those who live and work in the town centre. Dunstable and Houghton Regis will once again become towns that people can easily get in and out of to do business, shop, see their friends and socialise. This will greatly help all the shops in the town, as well as attracting many new employers to the area and persuading existing employers to expand their operations locally.
	The improvement in air quality in the town centre should be significant and GPs from my own practice in central Dunstable tell me that levels of asthma among children living near the heavily congested A5, which runs through the centre of Dunstable as the town's high street, are much higher than for children who live further away.
	It has been estimated by the Highways Agency that the total economic benefits are in the region of £684 million, against the cost of £135 million. The Highways Agency says that there will be £263 million-worth of economic benefits for business users and £302 million-worth of benefits for consumers, while a study commissioned by the East of England and carried out by the consultants W. S. Atkins said there would also be a further £190 million of wider economic benefit. All those figures are at 2002 prices, following the Department for Transport's guidance to enable common comparisons to be made. It is also estimated that the road will bring 5,750 extra jobs to be created through the release of new employment land, and I understand that a proposed rail freight depot at Sundon, creating a further 1,100 to 1,800 jobs, is also not likely to happen unless the A5 to M1 link is built.
	I am very conscious that a string of figures can seem very dry and technical, but the fact is that this new road has the potential to change the lives of my constituents for the better. Let us think of the mother in Dunstable who told me recently that her 18-year-old son had knocked on the door of every employer in the town to be told there was no job for him locally. I believe that this road will make a difference for that young man, as well as for very many others.
	The reason why the private sector developer is prepared to put in such significant private funding is that the road will enable 5,150 dwellings, which are essential to meet local affordable housing need, to be built. The A5 to M1 link will also enable other new housing developments to be built, thus greatly addressing housing need.
	Concern has been expressed locally about the decision to suspend the public inquiry, at which I was due to give evidence this Friday in strong support of this much needed road. I understand why the Government have had to suspend public inquiries to ensure that the funding is available for those inquiries that do proceed. I am greatly heartened, however, by the fact that there is the offer of very substantial funding to pay for junction 11A and the Woodside industrial estate connection road from a local private sector developer. That offer is an example of exactly the type of public-private sector partnership for which both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have called. The offer will make the economic benefits I have described even greater as the cost to the public purse is significantly cut. I know that Department for Transport officials will tomorrow meet officers from Central Bedfordshire council and representatives of the private sector developer to discuss how this vital road can be taken forward.
	I look forward to hearing what my hon. Friend the Minister has to say in reply. My constituents are reasonable people and understand that this Government have to be responsible with our public finances. My constituents have been patient and long-suffering over many years as the infrastructure that they have needed for their towns and villages to flourish has been denied them. They understand the need for the Government's current spending review, but they also need to know that things will get better for them and that this road, which the previous Government agreed to build on 9 July 2003, will be built, and will be built soon. I will listen with hope and expectation to what my hon. Friend, who I know to be a conscientious and hard-working Minister, has to say.

Michael Penning: It is a great privilege to be responding as the roads Minister this evening in my first Adjournment debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), who is my constituency neighbour, on securing the debate, and on the double whammy of having also presented a petition on the same subject tonight. I have been a Member of Parliament for five years, but I have not witnessed that before, and I suspect many colleagues might see it as a way forward. May I also congratulate other Members who have been campaigning hard on this issue, especially the two Members who are present this evening: my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) and the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins)?
	This scheme is currently under formal statutory process, so it would not be appropriate for me to discuss it in greater detail than I have done in correspondence with my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire. I will do my best within the restrictions, but I must not risk prejudicing the public inquiry process, if and when it starts.
	As my hon. Friend said, the A5-M1 link road scheme has been part of the roads programme since 2003. It has been promoted to address traffic congestion on the A505 and the A5 in the centre of Dunstable, an area that I know well myself-I have been stuck in the traffic there. This is also part of the core trunk road network linking London and the south midlands, and it is a key road corridor for long and medium-distance traffic travelling south from Milton Keynes through Dunstable to the M1, forming part of the historic London to Holyhead trunk road. The A505 to the A5 and the A416 are also affected by this scheme.
	As a result of being part of these key transport links, which facilitate the movement of large volumes of traffic, parts of the A5 have become heavily congested, particularly Dunstable high street. I am also conscious that Luton has been affected as well. Interestingly, and probably unsurprisingly, the A5 has a high accident rate. That might be a result of the congestion and of drivers speeding away from that. This morning the accident rates were produced by constituency for the first time, so Members can see the figures for roads in their area. I look forward to hearing their ideas as to how we might overcome traffic problems and improve road safety throughout the road network.
	The Highways Agency proposes a new 2.79 mile-long two-lane dual carriageway from the A5 to a new junction 11A on the M1 north of Luton. By offering an alternative link to the motorway, the proposed A5-M1 link road would act as a northern bypass for Dunstable.
	In September 2005, the Highways Agency appointed a contractor under the early contractor involvement initiative to take the A5-M1 link through the statutory process and construction phases. Also during 2005, the Highways Agency held a public consultation, and the preferred northern route was announced on 23 February 2007. The scheme was subsequently developed, leading to the publication of draft orders on 9 December 2009. That is where my restriction lies; I must not prejudice the public inquiry because of those draft orders. Under the previous allocation criteria for Highways Agency road schemes, the A5-M1 link was classified as a route of regional importance. Funding decisions on all schemes remain within the remit of the Secretary of State for Transport, irrespective of whether private funding is coming in. If public funding is involved, the decisions are part and parcel of his remit.
	I am very personally aware, and not just because of the excellent lobbying that has been done by hon. Members representing constituencies in this part of the world, that the A5-M1 road link is considered a priority. If I were the MP for South West Bedfordshire or for Mid Bedfordshire, I would be sitting on those seats and I would be having this debate tonight, because that is exactly what a constituency MP should be doing. I was also very conscious of the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire was aware of the problems and restrictions that I face at the moment.
	The scheme proposes to construct a new junction 11A, which would allow a connection with the proposed northern bypass and a connection that joins the A5-M1 link at the eastern end. I wish to deal with some of my hon. Friend's concerns at this point. I pay tribute to the enthusiasm of not only my hon. Friend and his colleagues on both sides of the House, but the local authorities in Bedfordshire, and to the importance that they attach to the scheme. I recognise that my hon. Friend has been a long-standing and vocal supporter of the scheme; I believe that this is the fourth Adjournment debate that he has had-

Andrew Selous: Hopefully the last.

Michael Penning: It may well be the last.
	My hon. Friend has recently asked a number of questions of the Secretary of State, and I have tried to answer them in as much detail and with as much explanation as possible. I am sure that more will follow in the next few weeks, as is right and proper.
	I am pleased to have the opportunity to respond to concerns following the Government's announcement on 10 June. I am sure that all hon. Members will feel that it was personal to them when the roads programme was suspended and all public inquiries stopped. The rationale behind the move was nothing personal in respect of any particular scheme. The decision had to be made on the basis of whether I could guarantee, and the Secretary of State could guarantee, the funding for a programme, subject to the spending review that will not be with us until October. I could not put forward public money for public inquiries without knowing whether the funding would be in place in the future for a road programme. Where we are using taxpayers' money, it is important that we are diligent as to how it should be spent.
	I know that that decision was a great disappointment, not only to my hon. Friend, but to the many people around the country who are involved in the many schemes and are lobbying me extensively every time that they bump into me. That is right and proper, but the supporters of schemes must understand how hard it is in this difficult financial situation that the previous Government have left us in. We have to be very diligent in determining how money is spent and we must not spend money in advance of its being allocated.
	The reasons for postponing the public inquiry and not reinstating it even when there was an offer of partial funding from the private sector for this is that the programme would still have also contained much public funding. As I said, it would not be proper for us to go ahead with the public inquiry, irrespective of whether funding was coming from sources other than central funding, without knowing that we had the money to go forward. This part of the programme is only part of the project on the M1, and it is important that we have this scheme together when it goes before the public inquiry, should that happen.
	As a general policy, we have therefore decided that forthcoming public inquiries throughout the country will be postponed for the time being. Our aim is to provide an indication of the way forward for all schemes once the spending review has been completed. Postponing the public inquiry into the A5-M1 link is entirely consistent with that programme around the country and we have taken a similar position with all other schemes.
	The consequences of the delay are significant. I am conscious of that fact and I know that there is disappointment about this scheme and other schemes. Should the Secretary of State decide that the scheme should go ahead, it will not be possible to construct the A5-M1 link scheme in accordance with the timetable originally planned. In particular, it will be no longer possible to optimise construction with the works currently under way on the M1 between junctions 10 and 13, as previously intended.
	The delay in the A5-M1 link will mean that there will be an increase in the cost of the scheme. We know that. It is not something that we wanted to happen, but it had to be that way otherwise we might have gone ahead with a programme for which we did not necessarily have the funding. I fully recognise how unfortunate and difficult it is for people who have been waiting so long for the scheme to go ahead, but with the funding uncertainties, it remains difficult-impossible, really-for us to go ahead with the public inquiry.
	The Highways Agency will review the programme with the aim of minimising the time and cost consequences should the Secretary of State go ahead with the programme. Central Bedfordshire's offer of funding, as I said earlier, was very welcome. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire has touched on something here that we can take forward with other programmes as regards how we engage the local community much more and how programmes can be seen to bring better bang for our buck, as it were, when so much public money is being spent.
	I am also pleased that, as my hon. Friend knows, tomorrow there will be a meeting of my officials with the developers and others so that we can see what is on the table and what programmes are available. I keep having to put in the word "should", because that is the way that it has to be, but should the programme go forward we will know better very early on how it can be taken forward.
	The funding proposals described in the letter from my hon. Friend to the Secretary of State are of interest and I have asked my officials not only to have the initial discussions in the meeting tomorrow but to try to flesh out how they could be taken forward. But-I have to come back to this-it does not provide a sufficient basis to reinstate the public inquiry ahead of the spending review. I hope that my hon. Friend understands that.
	The overall project would cost in excess of £150 million, approximately half of which would be for the new junction 11A on the M1. Therefore, even if developer funding were available to fund the cost of junction 11A in full, it would still be necessary for the Secretary of State to commit significant balances to the remainder of the scheme in order for the scheme to go forward. That is something that the Secretary of State is not prepared to do. I know that that has caused a lot of disappointment, but it is consistent with the way in which we have looked at all the projects around the country.
	I should also add that if we were to reinstate the public inquiry now, it would not be able to start until the autumn due to the statutory time scales required. The delays would be back in place. That would mean that the construction programme would still be delayed beyond the previously planned start date. Nevertheless, there is scope for developer funding to improve the affordability of the scheme and to develop projects around the scheme and therefore its prospects within the spending review. I therefore consider it to be of the utmost importance that the scope of any funding support, with the whole programme available, should be developed as early as possible.
	The way forward is for the benefits provided by the scheme to be considered carefully as part of the spending review. If the scheme remains a priority after the spending review and it can be delivered within the funding available to the Department along with, possibly, funding from local authorities and the developer, the Highways Agency will develop a revised programme to take the statutory process forward-particularly the public inquiry-in liaison with regional stakeholders.
	In conclusion, I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising these issues here today as well as in correspondence with me, privately, behind the Speaker's Chair and at any other opportunity. I think that is right and proper and, as I said earlier, I would have done exactly the same if I were in his position because that is what a constituency MP does. He is not alone in his campaign: my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire and the hon. Member for Luton North, who are present, have also made their points. We have tried to be as fair as possible throughout the process. Having come to the Department only seven weeks ago, I have been very conscious of the need to make decisions early on, and the Secretary of State has been very conscious that we should be as consistent, open and public as possible throughout our decision making.
	I hope that I have reassured my hon. Friend that the Department is aware of the importance of the A5-M1 link road scheme, and I hope also that he will appreciate the necessity of the Government not committing funds ahead of the comprehensive spending review. I look forward to having further discussions about this with him and other colleagues and officials-indeed, I will speak to officials tomorrow. I hope that by having this debate on the Floor of the House we have aired this issue, which is very important to his constituents and others, and I hope also that we will have an opportunity to look at the scheme properly when the spending review is finished.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 House adjourned.